24p questions

Allen Thok · July 20th, 2006, 05:06 PM

Hey all you gurus out there. Here's one for you. I've been trying to digitize my footage shot on xl2 24p to FCP, but the images are choppy and not converting. Do you think its the deck (is there a specific deck for xl2 24p) or is it in the software? How do you feel digitizing out of the camera? Help, can't seem to figure it out? And it is shot in 24p not 24pa.

Brian Vannucci · July 20th, 2006, 05:23 PM

I ran into this same problem for a while. When capturing video, the deck, or any other device you use to digitze, will send the data on that tape to final cut pro at 30 frames--because that is what video is read as. It will still appear 24P in the timeline and when you have eported it as well, but it will not allow you to capture 24P without dropping frames. Set everything to 30 frames--it's 29.97 I believe. I just recently purchased a firestore hard drive that enables me to edit true 24P footage in final cut pro, under 23.97 frames. Other than that, you should be going with 30 frmes. Good luck.

Greg Boston · July 20th, 2006, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Vannucci

I ran into this same problem for a while. When capturing video, the deck, or any other device you use to digitze, will send the data on that tape to final cut pro at 30 frames--because that is what video is read as. It will still appear 24P in the timeline and when you have eported it as well, but it will not allow you to capture 24P without dropping frames. Set everything to 30 frames--it's 29.97 I believe. I just recently purchased a firestore hard drive that enables me to edit true 24P footage in final cut pro, under 23.97 frames. Other than that, you should be going with 30 frmes. Good luck.

The capture issues may be related to using a deck other than the XL2. I had that issue before. I would suggest that Allen try capturing the footage with the XL2.

As for FCP settings, if you have the current release 5.1.1 there is an easy setup for getting 24p advanced. See the image below.

-gb-

Lori Starfelt · July 20th, 2006, 07:58 PM

However, I have, myself, experienced instances where there is difficulty digitizing footage, most particularly footage shot on the XL series, when the camera is in the LP mode. In such a case, you'll need to use the camera to directly load the footage into final cut pro.

what kind of deck are you using? I have a Sony DSR-20 and that seems to do the trick in most cases.

If it turns out that you are shooting in the LP mode, then I must ask you why. You're limiting the quality for no real gain. Especially when you can buy Sony Premium mini-dv tapes at FilmTools for a mere $2.90 per tape. If you're not shooting LP, then there may be a scanning issue somewhere. But FCP can't tell the difference between 24p and a regular 30 frames per second. Good luck.

Jim Herman · July 21st, 2006, 12:02 AM

I am using Vegas with the XL2 and I was wondering if I had to capture my 24p footage with the XL2 or if it was ok to use a different camera such as the GL2.

Thanks
-Jim

Allen Thok · July 21st, 2006, 01:50 AM

the footage is shot in SP mode

Adam Bray · August 1st, 2006, 03:35 AM

What good is the 24p on the XL2, since major movements causes motion blur when trying to replicate using 1/48

It seems the 24p would only be good for talking heads interviews. Anyone have any tips on what the 24p is good for?

Mathieu Ghekiere · August 1st, 2006, 07:36 AM

For narrative film...

You can see that motion blur too in film...

Steve Witt · August 1st, 2006, 07:57 AM

Adam, Are you asking this about 24p because you have used it or seen it and did Not like what you saw.......or because you just read about it and are not sure what it is for? The reason I am asking this is because I myself have never used it before and want to know if "24p blur" would come as a shock???

Chris Hurd · August 1st, 2006, 08:13 AM

You might want to ask Panasonic DVX100 owners what good is 24P on their camcorders, because it's the exact same implementation on the Canon XL2.

Justine Haupt · August 1st, 2006, 08:15 AM

The motion blur at 1/48 is no different from the motion blur on film with a 180 shutter... but I honestly don't know why so many people feel like they need to shoot at 1/48. When a dp working with a film camera wants to freeze motion, they just change the shutter angle, and the analogue on the XL2 is of course a faster shutter.

Or did I misunderstand something?

I try to shoot with a faster shutter than 1/48 most of the time... at least over 1/100. I just think it looks better.

Josh Bass · August 1st, 2006, 08:38 AM

Isn't 1/48 the "typical" shutter speed for 24p? The same as 1/60 is for 30p/60i?

Matthew Nayman · August 1st, 2006, 09:37 AM

Shutter speed in film cameras depends on the angle of the shutter. The most common, "cine" shutter angle is 180 Degrees, which means it covers half of the time and is open half of the time. This means that at 24fps, a frame is exposed for 1/48 of a second, and the gate is closed for 1/48 of a second (to allow for the next piece of film to moved into position and stopped).

A bolex has a variable shutter, meaning you can close it up past 180 or open more than, letting more light, or more otion blur in, or less light and less "Blur"

I have actually done some comparative tests between an XL2, DVX and a 16mm Arri S to test out how strobing in the XL2 looks compared to film cams, and it is about the same. usually, try and use a 1/48 or 1/60 to really emulate hollywood film (if that's important to you).

Josh Bass · August 1st, 2006, 10:12 AM

Exactly. Seems like 1/100 and higher would give you that no motion blur, super stuttery effect (gladiator, saving private ryan). Maybe that's what you're going for.

Ash Greyson · August 1st, 2006, 12:02 PM

You cant flip the switch from 60i to 24P and have it magically look like film... well... maybe poorly shot film. You need to adjust the way you shoot, you have to shoot like film, controlling your movement, frame properly, control the DOF, etc. Someday I will get a reel together and you can see that 24P on the XL2 does not have to be juttery, it can be silky smooth.

As far as shutter, I will hammer it home once again. If you using ANYTHING but a 1/48th shutter in 24P (1/60th in 60i) you are applying an IRREVERSIBLE effect. There is no way to undo it in post. Using a shutter of 1/100th effectively negates the effect of 24P, might as well shoot in 30P at that point.

ash =o)

July 20th, 2006, 05:06 PM	#511
Allen Thok New Boot Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 17	HELP editing 24p on FCP Hey all you gurus out there. Here's one for you. I've been trying to digitize my footage shot on xl2 24p to FCP, but the images are choppy and not converting. Do you think its the deck (is there a specific deck for xl2 24p) or is it in the software? How do you feel digitizing out of the camera? Help, can't seem to figure it out? And it is shot in 24p not 24pa.

July 20th, 2006, 07:58 PM	#514
Lori Starfelt Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Los Angeles, california Posts: 228	You should be experiencing no problem with this operation. However, I have, myself, experienced instances where there is difficulty digitizing footage, most particularly footage shot on the XL series, when the camera is in the LP mode. In such a case, you'll need to use the camera to directly load the footage into final cut pro. what kind of deck are you using? I have a Sony DSR-20 and that seems to do the trick in most cases. If it turns out that you are shooting in the LP mode, then I must ask you why. You're limiting the quality for no real gain. Especially when you can buy Sony Premium mini-dv tapes at FilmTools for a mere $2.90 per tape. If you're not shooting LP, then there may be a scanning issue somewhere. But FCP can't tell the difference between 24p and a regular 30 frames per second. Good luck.

July 21st, 2006, 12:02 AM	#515
Jim Herman Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Boyertown, PA Posts: 28	Capturing 24p I am using Vegas with the XL2 and I was wondering if I had to capture my 24p footage with the XL2 or if it was ok to use a different camera such as the GL2. Thanks -Jim

August 1st, 2006, 03:35 AM	#517
Adam Bray Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Houston/Austin Posts: 394	What good is the 24p on the XL2? What good is the 24p on the XL2, since major movements causes motion blur when trying to replicate using 1/48 It seems the 24p would only be good for talking heads interviews. Anyone have any tips on what the 24p is good for?

August 1st, 2006, 07:36 AM	#518
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	For narrative film... You can see that motion blur too in film... __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

July 20th, 2006, 05:23 PM	#512
Brian Vannucci New Boot Join Date: May 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11	I ran into this same problem for a while. When capturing video, the deck, or any other device you use to digitze, will send the data on that tape to final cut pro at 30 frames--because that is what video is read as. It will still appear 24P in the timeline and when you have eported it as well, but it will not allow you to capture 24P without dropping frames. Set everything to 30 frames--it's 29.97 I believe. I just recently purchased a firestore hard drive that enables me to edit true 24P footage in final cut pro, under 23.97 frames. Other than that, you should be going with 30 frmes. Good luck.

July 21st, 2006, 01:50 AM	#516
Allen Thok New Boot Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 17	the footage is shot in SP mode

August 1st, 2006, 07:57 AM	#519
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Adam, Are you asking this about 24p because you have used it or seen it and did Not like what you saw.......or because you just read about it and are not sure what it is for? The reason I am asking this is because I myself have never used it before and want to know if "24p blur" would come as a shock???

August 1st, 2006, 08:13 AM	#520
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	You might want to ask Panasonic DVX100 owners what good is 24P on their camcorders, because it's the exact same implementation on the Canon XL2. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

August 1st, 2006, 08:15 AM	#521
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	The motion blur at 1/48 is no different from the motion blur on film with a 180 shutter... but I honestly don't know why so many people feel like they need to shoot at 1/48. When a dp working with a film camera wants to freeze motion, they just change the shutter angle, and the analogue on the XL2 is of course a faster shutter. Or did I misunderstand something? I try to shoot with a faster shutter than 1/48 most of the time... at least over 1/100. I just think it looks better. __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

August 1st, 2006, 08:38 AM	#522
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Isn't 1/48 the "typical" shutter speed for 24p? The same as 1/60 is for 30p/60i? __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

August 1st, 2006, 09:37 AM	#523
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	Shutter speed in film cameras depends on the angle of the shutter. The most common, "cine" shutter angle is 180 Degrees, which means it covers half of the time and is open half of the time. This means that at 24fps, a frame is exposed for 1/48 of a second, and the gate is closed for 1/48 of a second (to allow for the next piece of film to moved into position and stopped). A bolex has a variable shutter, meaning you can close it up past 180 or open more than, letting more light, or more otion blur in, or less light and less "Blur" I have actually done some comparative tests between an XL2, DVX and a 16mm Arri S to test out how strobing in the XL2 looks compared to film cams, and it is about the same. usually, try and use a 1/48 or 1/60 to really emulate hollywood film (if that's important to you).

August 1st, 2006, 10:12 AM	#524
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Exactly. Seems like 1/100 and higher would give you that no motion blur, super stuttery effect (gladiator, saving private ryan). Maybe that's what you're going for. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

August 1st, 2006, 12:02 PM	#525
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	You cant flip the switch from 60i to 24P and have it magically look like film... well... maybe poorly shot film. You need to adjust the way you shoot, you have to shoot like film, controlling your movement, frame properly, control the DOF, etc. Someday I will get a reel together and you can see that 24P on the XL2 does not have to be juttery, it can be silky smooth. As far as shutter, I will hammer it home once again. If you using ANYTHING but a 1/48th shutter in 24P (1/60th in 60i) you are applying an IRREVERSIBLE effect. There is no way to undo it in post. Using a shutter of 1/100th effectively negates the effect of 24P, might as well shoot in 30P at that point. ash =o)