24p questions

Barry Green · April 28th, 2005, 01:03 PM

If you're editing on a 24p timeline, stick with 2:3:3:2. Even if you've started out with 2:3 footage. 2:3:3:2 exports the footage without having to re-interleave and recompress it.

The DVX uses the same methods: 2:3 is called "24P mode", 2:3:3:2 is called "24PA mode".

Derek Hoffman · May 1st, 2005, 09:35 PM

Ok wow, although this whole thread helped me learn alot i am still very confused, can you just answer me this....

If i want to film a short "film", capture and edit on Premiere Pro 7.0 with a 24p timelline, export and burn a DVD with Encore, i should film in 24p with 2:3:3:2 pulldown, correct? Even though i have no intension of converting to film...

Also, when the xl2 films in 16:9, even though its at a higher resolution than 4:3 and it uses a bigger CCD, it still squeezes it into a 4:3 for editing right? So when i capture i should capture in a widescreen timeline/project?

Wait doesnt that defeat the whole purpose of the bigger CCD? Or does the tape have a fancy way of storing it so when you capture it it is recorded as 960x480?

Greg Boston · May 3rd, 2005, 10:32 PM

Ok guys...we have beaten the 24p horse to death in this thread. And because it has turned into a 'my way vs. your way' from some of the contributors, I am closing this thread. For anyone who still doesn't understand 24p workflow, I suggest additional reading and/or training dvds. I know I had to look at this workflow a few times myself before deciding the right way to proceed.

Thanks to all for putting forth their knowledge on this subject.

-gb-

Zia Basith · May 16th, 2005, 01:32 AM

Hi guys, I'm shooting with XL2 with 24p fps and I' like to find out at what shutter speed whould I keep it at? Thanks,
ZIA

Jon Bickford · May 16th, 2005, 02:09 AM

to make 24p look like film you want to shoot at 1/48th of a second shutter speed, this replicates the spinning mirror in a film camera which is normally open and exposing the film half of the time.

Forbes Hansen · May 16th, 2005, 12:05 PM

also if you are going for a Saving Private Ryan look put it on 1/250 and move the camera around- it looks pretty cool.

Steve House · June 14th, 2005, 09:36 AM

When shooting in 24p mode, what is the framerate of the video that is actually recorded on tape? Is it recorded as true 24p or is it converted to standard NTSC 29.97 with pulldown such as you'd have when shooting on film and converting to video?

No sooner had I posted this than I found the answer

But in a related question, is there any problem in playing back tapes recorded on the XL2 in 24p with 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown on VTRs like the Sony DSR-11 or editing them in either Vegas or Premiere?

Rob Lohman · June 16th, 2005, 02:41 AM

For anyone else reading this: the answer to Steve's original question is that
the signal is pulled down to 60i (or 30 frames per second). The signal is NOT
stored as 24p, but it can be restored to that on a computer without ANY
signal/quality/frame loss!

To answer your "second" question, since the signal is just plain old NTSC any
DV device can work with it. However, a special flag has been set to let any
decoder that understands that flag know it was recorded in 24p with either
the 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown sequence.

So get back 24p you will need something that understands that (ie, a recent
NLE on a computer), but anything should be able to work with the signal
(in 60i/30p).

Vegas understands 24p from either one of the later updates to version 4 or
definitely from version 5. Premiere needs Premiere Pro (I think).

Steve House · June 16th, 2005, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Lohman

For anyone else reading this: the answer to Steve's original question is that
the signal is pulled down to 60i (or 30 frames per second). The signal is NOT
stored as 24p, but it can be restored to that on a computer without ANY
signal/quality/frame loss!

To answer your "second" question, since the signal is just plain old NTSC any
DV device can work with it. However, a special flag has been set to let any
decoder that understands that flag know it was recorded in 24p with either
the 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown sequence.

So get back 24p you will need something that understands that (ie, a recent
NLE on a computer), but anything should be able to work with the signal
(in 60i/30p).

Vegas understands 24p from either one of the later updates to version 4 or
definitely from version 5. Premiere needs Premiere Pro (I think).

Thanks - my question was prompted by considerations regarding shooting in 24p mode in the XL2 and playing the resulting tapes on a deck as the capture device rather than using the camera as the playback device to get the material into the computer. Thinking of getting a DSR-11 for this purpose and I have seen comments elsewhere such as "the Sony DSR-11 doesn't do 24p" and just headed towards clarifying what such a remark really means regarding a mfgr's products. I know it doesn't record native 24p, but as I approach camera & VTR purchase decisions it wouldn't make sense to buy a deck that wouldn't play some of the tapes I'd be shooting.

Bill Zens · June 16th, 2005, 10:34 AM

So, to summarize....
All (or virtually all, as there are usually exceptions...) DV playback devices (whether camera or deck) will be able to read the 24p "flag" and will send that flag through as part of the captured video. It is then up to the software to read the flag, and then perform the pulldown...

Correct?????

Wes Coughlin · June 16th, 2005, 11:40 AM

First thing first; If you are using adobe premiere, you need adobe premiere pro 1.5. second, the programs (at least premiere) only show you a preview of what the 24p is going to be, at this poin it is still in the 60i format. third, after editing within your 24p timeline, you must then use a mpeg encoder to export your video, becuase mpeg is the only one that will allow a the 24p to export as actual 24fps. when exporting you need to select the frame rate to 24 or the 23.976 or whatever its appose to be, then on the GOP settings, change the 15 frame number to 12 (all of this is in premiere, im not sure about others). the reason why you cannot export to AVI is because it is strickly a 30 fps setting, and premiere will not preform the pull down; also be aware that you cannot mix any 24p with any 30p or 60i video, because the timeline is stickly for 24fps. Alot of media programs like Windows Media Player & Real Player will not play the newly exported 24fps video well, because of the frame rate. Adobe Encore is able to burn the progressive DVD and be able to play back on all progressive DVD players.

The key thing is, is that the 24p is not 24fps until you export to a true 24fps through an mpeg or somthing else. It's a hassel but has good results.

Lucinda Luvaas · June 16th, 2005, 05:15 PM

So, can you record at 24p and then use a 30fps settings in timeline, if you can't do a true 24p, or 24fps? I'm still using AP 6.5/Mac and was told I could use the 24 setting on the cam and 30 drop frame for the timeline. Is this correct?

Lucinda

Wes Coughlin · June 16th, 2005, 05:57 PM

AP 6.5 will allow you to place the 24p footage into the 30 fps timeline becuase the 24p is actually 30 fps footage; if you scroll frame by frame, you will see that every other or third frame is repeated; which is caused by the 2:3 pull down or the 2:3:3:2 pull down that you have selected; when you export the video, its nothin but 24 fps trying to be 30fps which is really bad. AP 6.5 does not have any 24p compatabilities; so far adobe has only recently updated their software to handle 24p and this is only in the new Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5. You should try to upgrade to FCP or Premiere Pro 1.5; their way better then premiere 6.5 (work flow is much faster) and are somewhat simmular to 6.5, so the transistion is not hard.

Lucinda Luvaas · June 16th, 2005, 07:58 PM

OK, I understand. For the time being, I can work in 30fps and what about 60i? can't I use the 30fps timeline for that, and what happens when I export that timeline. I am getting FCP, but not 'til the Fall and I need to do some work before the Fall in the version of Premiere that I have with the Canon. Lucinda

Rob Lohman · June 17th, 2005, 03:14 AM

Yes, the deck should just send the raw DV stream from tape over firewire
to your computer. Your computer simply stores this stream (in a wrapper
format) which it calls capturing. If the information isn't touched in these
steps (it shouldn't!!) then the flag is still present and any editing package
that understands this flag will be able to remove the pulldown.

Yes, you can also edit the footage with any editing package that does NOT
understand this 24p flag. However, it will just see 30 fps NTSC footage and
edit it like that.

Note: if you do the latter and output the editted movie the flag will be lost
in the OUTPUT file from that point forward. The source files will still have
the flag.

May 1st, 2005, 09:35 PM	#242
Derek Hoffman New Boot Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 11	Put It Simply Please Ok wow, although this whole thread helped me learn alot i am still very confused, can you just answer me this.... If i want to film a short "film", capture and edit on Premiere Pro 7.0 with a 24p timelline, export and burn a DVD with Encore, i should film in 24p with 2:3:3:2 pulldown, correct? Even though i have no intension of converting to film... Also, when the xl2 films in 16:9, even though its at a higher resolution than 4:3 and it uses a bigger CCD, it still squeezes it into a 4:3 for editing right? So when i capture i should capture in a widescreen timeline/project? Wait doesnt that defeat the whole purpose of the bigger CCD? Or does the tape have a fancy way of storing it so when you capture it it is recorded as 960x480?

May 16th, 2005, 01:32 AM	#244
Zia Basith New Boot Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 23	XL2 24p with what shutter speed? Hi guys, I'm shooting with XL2 with 24p fps and I' like to find out at what shutter speed whould I keep it at? Thanks, ZIA

May 16th, 2005, 02:09 AM	#245
Jon Bickford Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV., Los Angeles, CA, Posts: 220	to make 24p look like film you want to shoot at 1/48th of a second shutter speed, this replicates the spinning mirror in a film camera which is normally open and exposing the film half of the time. __________________ Jon Bickford, Trepany Films San Pedro, CA Trephine001@aol.com

June 14th, 2005, 09:36 AM	#247
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	XL2 24p output When shooting in 24p mode, what is the framerate of the video that is actually recorded on tape? Is it recorded as true 24p or is it converted to standard NTSC 29.97 with pulldown such as you'd have when shooting on film and converting to video? No sooner had I posted this than I found the answer But in a related question, is there any problem in playing back tapes recorded on the XL2 in 24p with 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown on VTRs like the Sony DSR-11 or editing them in either Vegas or Premiere?

June 16th, 2005, 02:41 AM	#248
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	For anyone else reading this: the answer to Steve's original question is that the signal is pulled down to 60i (or 30 frames per second). The signal is NOT stored as 24p, but it can be restored to that on a computer without ANY signal/quality/frame loss! To answer your "second" question, since the signal is just plain old NTSC any DV device can work with it. However, a special flag has been set to let any decoder that understands that flag know it was recorded in 24p with either the 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown sequence. So get back 24p you will need something that understands that (ie, a recent NLE on a computer), but anything should be able to work with the signal (in 60i/30p). Vegas understands 24p from either one of the later updates to version 4 or definitely from version 5. Premiere needs Premiere Pro (I think). __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 28th, 2005, 01:03 PM	#241
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	If you're editing on a 24p timeline, stick with 2:3:3:2. Even if you've started out with 2:3 footage. 2:3:3:2 exports the footage without having to re-interleave and recompress it. The DVX uses the same methods: 2:3 is called "24P mode", 2:3:3:2 is called "24PA mode".

May 3rd, 2005, 10:32 PM	#243
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	Ok guys...we have beaten the 24p horse to death in this thread. And because it has turned into a 'my way vs. your way' from some of the contributors, I am closing this thread. For anyone who still doesn't understand 24p workflow, I suggest additional reading and/or training dvds. I know I had to look at this workflow a few times myself before deciding the right way to proceed. Thanks to all for putting forth their knowledge on this subject. -gb-

May 16th, 2005, 12:05 PM	#246
Forbes Hansen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 28	also if you are going for a Saving Private Ryan look put it on 1/250 and move the camera around- it looks pretty cool.

June 16th, 2005, 10:34 AM	#250
Bill Zens Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 191	So, to summarize.... All (or virtually all, as there are usually exceptions...) DV playback devices (whether camera or deck) will be able to read the 24p "flag" and will send that flag through as part of the captured video. It is then up to the software to read the flag, and then perform the pulldown... Correct?????

June 16th, 2005, 11:40 AM	#251
Wes Coughlin Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bend, Oregon Posts: 206	First thing first; If you are using adobe premiere, you need adobe premiere pro 1.5. second, the programs (at least premiere) only show you a preview of what the 24p is going to be, at this poin it is still in the 60i format. third, after editing within your 24p timeline, you must then use a mpeg encoder to export your video, becuase mpeg is the only one that will allow a the 24p to export as actual 24fps. when exporting you need to select the frame rate to 24 or the 23.976 or whatever its appose to be, then on the GOP settings, change the 15 frame number to 12 (all of this is in premiere, im not sure about others). the reason why you cannot export to AVI is because it is strickly a 30 fps setting, and premiere will not preform the pull down; also be aware that you cannot mix any 24p with any 30p or 60i video, because the timeline is stickly for 24fps. Alot of media programs like Windows Media Player & Real Player will not play the newly exported 24fps video well, because of the frame rate. Adobe Encore is able to burn the progressive DVD and be able to play back on all progressive DVD players. The key thing is, is that the 24p is not 24fps until you export to a true 24fps through an mpeg or somthing else. It's a hassel but has good results.

June 16th, 2005, 05:15 PM	#252
Lucinda Luvaas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 233	So, can you record at 24p and then use a 30fps settings in timeline, if you can't do a true 24p, or 24fps? I'm still using AP 6.5/Mac and was told I could use the 24 setting on the cam and 30 drop frame for the timeline. Is this correct? Lucinda

June 16th, 2005, 05:57 PM	#253
Wes Coughlin Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bend, Oregon Posts: 206	AP 6.5 will allow you to place the 24p footage into the 30 fps timeline becuase the 24p is actually 30 fps footage; if you scroll frame by frame, you will see that every other or third frame is repeated; which is caused by the 2:3 pull down or the 2:3:3:2 pull down that you have selected; when you export the video, its nothin but 24 fps trying to be 30fps which is really bad. AP 6.5 does not have any 24p compatabilities; so far adobe has only recently updated their software to handle 24p and this is only in the new Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5. You should try to upgrade to FCP or Premiere Pro 1.5; their way better then premiere 6.5 (work flow is much faster) and are somewhat simmular to 6.5, so the transistion is not hard.

June 16th, 2005, 07:58 PM	#254
Lucinda Luvaas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 233	OK, I understand. For the time being, I can work in 30fps and what about 60i? can't I use the 30fps timeline for that, and what happens when I export that timeline. I am getting FCP, but not 'til the Fall and I need to do some work before the Fall in the version of Premiere that I have with the Canon. Lucinda

June 17th, 2005, 03:14 AM	#255
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Yes, the deck should just send the raw DV stream from tape over firewire to your computer. Your computer simply stores this stream (in a wrapper format) which it calls capturing. If the information isn't touched in these steps (it shouldn't!!) then the flag is still present and any editing package that understands this flag will be able to remove the pulldown. Yes, you can also edit the footage with any editing package that does NOT understand this 24p flag. However, it will just see 30 fps NTSC footage and edit it like that. Note: if you do the latter and output the editted movie the flag will be lost in the OUTPUT file from that point forward. The source files will still have the flag. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors