24p questions

Jay Gladwell · April 14th, 2005, 10:15 AM

Excellent article, Kevin! Adam says basically the same I was saying, if I understood him correctly. He said, "The general rule is to shoot 24p Advanced [2:3:3:2] if you want to extract the original 24 frames/second for a 24fps edit or film-out. Shoot 24p Standard [2:3] if you are going to stay on video and edit at 30 frames/seconds (60 fields/second, i.e., plain ol' video at NTSC frame rates)..."

Isn't that what I was saying?

Kevin Kocak · April 14th, 2005, 12:26 PM

Yeah, I just posted it b/c I was very confused at one time and had people explaining it to me but seeing the visual representation really helped me wrap my head around the whole concept. I will have to admit I had toread it a couple of times to taake it all in.

Richard Hunter · April 14th, 2005, 06:21 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jay Gladwell : Excellent article, Kevin! Adam says basically the same I was saying, if I understood him correctly. He said, "The general rule is to shoot 24p Advanced [2:3:3:2] if you want to extract the original 24 frames/second for a 24fps edit or film-out. Shoot 24p Standard [2:3] if you are going to stay on video and edit at 30 frames/seconds (60 fields/second, i.e., plain ol' video at NTSC frame rates)..."

Isn't that what I was saying? -->>>

Jay, what you said was

"Therefore, if he plans to display the video on television (by way of DVD) and not transfering to film, he should be shooting using the 24p 2:3 mode."

This does not seem to apply to the situation of viewing on TV via 24p DVD where you would want to edit with a 24p timeline and so would want to shoot in 24p Advanced.

Richard

Jay Gladwell · April 14th, 2005, 07:45 PM

Whatever, Richard. I really don't care. To each his own. If you're showing on it TV, the end result will be the same by the nature of the viewing medium.

If you want to edit in 24p Advanced and it makes you feel good, go for it, big guy!

Barry Green · April 14th, 2005, 11:37 PM

Well, it does make a difference. It makes a big difference. If editing in a 24P timeline, you can make a pure 24P DVD, which means 20% more space on the disc, or the ability to use a higher bitrate for more efficient compression.

And if playing back on an NTSC TV, yes there'll be pulldown added, whether you did it yourself in the timeline or you let the DVD player do it. But if playing back on a progressive TV, you can get a much better look by encoding the DVD at 24P in the first place, completely bypassing pulldown entirely.

Brad Simmons · April 15th, 2005, 07:58 AM

Jay, the point is... you seem to be saying that if your final output is TV, then just use 2:3 because that's what you're "supposed" to do.

As Barry said, there is a difference, and it doesn't really have anything to do with final output. You can still use 2:3:3:2 if you're final output is television. In fact it's the prefered method, because it gives you other options, such as better compression, output to 24p DVD, and if you decide down the road you want to transfer to film, it's much easier.

In reality, if you can edit in 24p, I don't see the point of using 2:3.....ever.

Kevin Kocak · April 15th, 2005, 09:13 AM

This is making my head hurt

John S. Warrick · April 15th, 2005, 09:32 AM

I have yet to use my XL2 (what is WRONG with me??) but when I do I'll be shooting 2:3:3:2. Now my question: when I pull it into Premiere Pro do I create a 24p project? Or do I need something like DV Maker to convert the 2:3:3:2 to 24p before putting it in Premiere?

Steve Smith · April 15th, 2005, 02:38 PM

We just have 25 P, that's it. Due to the math, we can not do 24 P whether 2:3 or 2:3:3:2....

Have fun with the additional options avaialbel to the 60 Hz, 100 V, 60 fps inahabitants.

David Lach · April 15th, 2005, 02:40 PM

John, Premiere Pro incorporates the ability to deal with 24p footage all by itself and remove the fake frames when you edit in a 24p timeline. So no need for Maker, just create a 24p project with your corresponding aspect ratio and acquire your footage normally. It will detect and remove the fake frames introduced by the XL2 (for 2:3:3:2 pull down).

Frank Aalbers · April 16th, 2005, 11:51 AM

It's kind of amazing how you have to repeat the same thing over and over again hey Barry ? :-)

Jay Gladwell · April 16th, 2005, 12:01 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Brad Simmons : Jay, the point is... you seem to be saying that if your final output is TV, then just use 2:3 because that's what you're "supposed" to do. -->>>

Brad, that is not at all what I was saying. If you go back and re-read my posts, you'll see that I said "it's not an 'only' situation at all" and that Adam Wilt said "the general rule is...".

No where have I said this is the way it's "supposed" to be done.

Richard Hunter · April 17th, 2005, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell

<<<--
No where have I said this is the way it's "supposed" to be done.

But you did say something along those lines Jay:

"Therefore, if he plans to display the video on television (by way of DVD) and not transfering to film, he should be shooting using the 24p 2:3 mode."

Big guy. :)

Jay Gladwell · April 17th, 2005, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Hunter

But you did say something along those lines Jay:

"Therefore, if he plans to display the video on television (by way of DVD) and not transfering to film, he should be shooting using the 24p 2:3 mode."

Big guy. :)

Quoting from the Canon XL2 manual and David Castillo, that would be an accurate statement, which I will stand by.

John S. Warrick · April 17th, 2005, 09:22 PM

David,
Thanks so much for the info. I appreciate it very much.

April 15th, 2005, 09:32 AM	#218
John S. Warrick New Boot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 6	DV Maker I have yet to use my XL2 (what is WRONG with me??) but when I do I'll be shooting 2:3:3:2. Now my question: when I pull it into Premiere Pro do I create a 24p project? Or do I need something like DV Maker to convert the 2:3:3:2 to 24p before putting it in Premiere?

April 15th, 2005, 02:38 PM	#219
Steve Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Munich Germany Posts: 31	Thank God I live in PAL Land We just have 25 P, that's it. Due to the math, we can not do 24 P whether 2:3 or 2:3:3:2.... Have fun with the additional options avaialbel to the 60 Hz, 100 V, 60 fps inahabitants. __________________ Gone Fishing. If you need me, please wait! If it is important, please wait longer.

April 14th, 2005, 10:15 AM	#211
Jay Gladwell Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,244	Excellent article, Kevin! Adam says basically the same I was saying, if I understood him correctly. He said, "The general rule is to shoot 24p Advanced [2:3:3:2] if you want to extract the original 24 frames/second for a 24fps edit or film-out. Shoot 24p Standard [2:3] if you are going to stay on video and edit at 30 frames/seconds (60 fields/second, i.e., plain ol' video at NTSC frame rates)..." Isn't that what I was saying?

April 14th, 2005, 12:26 PM	#212
Kevin Kocak Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Tampa, Fl Posts: 149	Yeah, I just posted it b/c I was very confused at one time and had people explaining it to me but seeing the visual representation really helped me wrap my head around the whole concept. I will have to admit I had toread it a couple of times to taake it all in.

April 14th, 2005, 06:21 PM	#213
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	<<<-- Originally posted by Jay Gladwell : Excellent article, Kevin! Adam says basically the same I was saying, if I understood him correctly. He said, "The general rule is to shoot 24p Advanced [2:3:3:2] if you want to extract the original 24 frames/second for a 24fps edit or film-out. Shoot 24p Standard [2:3] if you are going to stay on video and edit at 30 frames/seconds (60 fields/second, i.e., plain ol' video at NTSC frame rates)..." Isn't that what I was saying? -->>> Jay, what you said was "Therefore, if he plans to display the video on television (by way of DVD) and not transfering to film, he should be shooting using the 24p 2:3 mode." This does not seem to apply to the situation of viewing on TV via 24p DVD where you would want to edit with a 24p timeline and so would want to shoot in 24p Advanced. Richard

April 14th, 2005, 07:45 PM	#214
Jay Gladwell Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,244	Whatever, Richard. I really don't care. To each his own. If you're showing on it TV, the end result will be the same by the nature of the viewing medium. If you want to edit in 24p Advanced and it makes you feel good, go for it, big guy!

April 14th, 2005, 11:37 PM	#215
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Well, it does make a difference. It makes a big difference. If editing in a 24P timeline, you can make a pure 24P DVD, which means 20% more space on the disc, or the ability to use a higher bitrate for more efficient compression. And if playing back on an NTSC TV, yes there'll be pulldown added, whether you did it yourself in the timeline or you let the DVD player do it. But if playing back on a progressive TV, you can get a much better look by encoding the DVD at 24P in the first place, completely bypassing pulldown entirely.

April 15th, 2005, 07:58 AM	#216
Brad Simmons Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Washington DC Posts: 304	Jay, the point is... you seem to be saying that if your final output is TV, then just use 2:3 because that's what you're "supposed" to do. As Barry said, there is a difference, and it doesn't really have anything to do with final output. You can still use 2:3:3:2 if you're final output is television. In fact it's the prefered method, because it gives you other options, such as better compression, output to 24p DVD, and if you decide down the road you want to transfer to film, it's much easier. In reality, if you can edit in 24p, I don't see the point of using 2:3.....ever.

April 15th, 2005, 09:13 AM	#217
Kevin Kocak Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Tampa, Fl Posts: 149	This is making my head hurt

April 15th, 2005, 02:40 PM	#220
David Lach Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Posts: 570	John, Premiere Pro incorporates the ability to deal with 24p footage all by itself and remove the fake frames when you edit in a 24p timeline. So no need for Maker, just create a 24p project with your corresponding aspect ratio and acquire your footage normally. It will detect and remove the fake frames introduced by the XL2 (for 2:3:3:2 pull down).

April 16th, 2005, 11:51 AM	#221
Frank Aalbers Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Oakland,CA Posts: 135	It's kind of amazing how you have to repeat the same thing over and over again hey Barry ? :-)

April 16th, 2005, 12:01 PM	#222
Jay Gladwell Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,244	<<<-- Originally posted by Brad Simmons : Jay, the point is... you seem to be saying that if your final output is TV, then just use 2:3 because that's what you're "supposed" to do. -->>> Brad, that is not at all what I was saying. If you go back and re-read my posts, you'll see that I said "it's not an 'only' situation at all" and that Adam Wilt said "the general rule is...". No where have I said this is the way it's "supposed" to be done.

April 17th, 2005, 09:22 PM	#225
John S. Warrick New Boot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 6	David, Thanks so much for the info. I appreciate it very much.