Canon 3x wide angle lens

Christopher Go · January 16th, 2005, 04:30 AM

Hello Scott, if no one should respond, you may want to contact James Lee, the technical support manager for 16X9INC. He should be able to tell you which Chrosziel matte box you need for the 3X wide angle lens. 16X9INC is the sole authorized US distributor for Chrosziel, who in turn provides Chrosziel products for B&H Photo, EVS, ZGC, etc.

Contact him at: jamesl@16x9inc.com or 866.800.1699. Of course, any one of our sponsers should be able to help too.

The 411-53 Chrosziel matte box they sell specifically for the XL2 "suits lenses up to 5.2mm or 4.5mm with one filter". I think the 3X may vignette at full wide, but to be sure contact James. Of course, they have other Chrosziel models to choose from, perhaps one better suited for the 3X?

Cinetech on the other hand, offers a full size, four-stage(!) matte box that can accomodate nearly any lens. Additionally, it is a swing-away matte box so you can switch between lenses without having to remove the entire matte box. I'm 95% certain this Cinetech matte box can fit the 3X wide angle lens without problem or vignetting so long as you have the right adapter ring in place. It also has the added benefit of using either 4X5 or 4X4 filters.

This setup will cost you closer to $3000 though so it is not cheap ($500 or so for the Cinetech rods and camera plate, $2400 - $2700 for the matte box depending on where you go, another $100 - $200 or so for the eye brow/french flag). Check out Cinetech for more info.

Not sure about the Cavision or Formatt matte boxes.

Scott Aston · January 16th, 2005, 08:16 AM

Hello Christopher,

Thanks for the reply. I will call those guys at 16X9 and see what they recommend. I am suprised that as many XL2 owners that visit dvinfo, that none has responded to this question. Perhaps most don't use a matte box with the 3x or the 20x. and if that is the case, I wonder why. Perhaps there are problems when using a matte box with the XL2?

Eric A Robinson · January 16th, 2005, 08:37 AM

Hi

Being a bit of a novice to the XL2, and filmmaking can I ask a question:-
"what is a matt box?"
"under what circumstances would you use on?"

Ta.

Jim Sofranko · January 16th, 2005, 04:32 PM

I have used the Vocas 2 stage matte box with the 3 x lens with no problem.

I recommend the Vocas as I have found it to be of high quality and very durable. The model I have has two rotating stages on it.

I purchased mine at the Filter Gallery in NYC. The Filter Gallery has a lot of different manufacturers represented there to try out.

Christopher Go · January 16th, 2005, 06:42 PM

Actually, the reason we see so few reports of using the XL2 with a matte box is because matte box manufacturers only just started producing camera plates/rods supports for the XL2.

At least this was the case for Chrosziel who only announced their XL2 rods support just last month and in fact I'm not even sure they're shipping yet (they are however, available now for order).

Whenever a new camera comes out all the matte box manufacturers have to ensure that their existing systems will work as installed or otherwise redesign and machine new parts. This is exactly what happened with the previous Chrosziel XL1s rods support, which was too short for use on the XL2.

The Cinetech base plate also needed to be modified, this time because the XL2 had a slightly wider base. So not necessarily a problem with matte boxes, just that the XL2 is still very new! I only just started seeing new matte boxes for Sony's HDV camcorders as well.

Christopher Go · January 16th, 2005, 07:16 PM

Eric, a matte box is an overpriced product aspiring cinematographers purchase to make their DV camcorders look like film cameras.

Did I say that out loud? Seriously, a matte box is simply a kind of lens hood/sun shade which you attach to the front of your camera lens. However, unlike the simple lens shade that came shipped with your camcorder, matte boxes allow you greater control over the light coming into your camera because:

1) A good matte box has a much larger shade area then a regular lens shade, extending as far out in front of the lens without getting in the shot itself. Matte boxes also frequently come with french flags or eye brows, something akin to placing your hand above your eyes when you're trying to see when its bright outdoors. In fact this is exactly how a matte box works: helps prevent stray light or too much bright light from affecting your camera's vision.

2) A good matte box allows you to use several filters without having to screw them on to the front of your lens. This is accomplished through the use of filter trays, which you can install and remove in seconds. Using multiple filters helps you create different images. Most matte boxes have at least two filter stages, higher-end matte boxes come with four or more! Search the forums on different filters you can use, but most matte boxes allow you to use 4X4 sized filters. Other sizes include 3X3, 4X5.6, or even 6X6. The larger sized filtes are found primarily in motion picture film.

Something else you should know is that matte boxes can be attached directly to the lens (clamp-on) or installed via a camera plate and rods (usually 15mm in thickness). The rods solution is more expensive but will allow you to keep the weight of the matte box and filters off of your lens. Having rods also means you can enjoy the use of a follow focus and other cinema accessories.

So far I've discussed the advantages of having a matte box. Drawbacks include more equipment cost, more equipment to carry and take up space in your bag, and taking more time to setup and install. Larger matte boxes can rarely be left on the camera because they just won't fit in bags made for the camera alone. So this means the matte box needs to be attached before every new shoot (imagine driving to several locations in a day, each time assembling the matte box and rods to the camera). One solution for this is to use a very large bag or case.

If you shoot documentaries or run-and-gun type of footage, a large matte box may not be for you. Besides, they add more weight and can be bulky to shoot with handheld. A matte box is best for controlled filming situations, as on a narrative feature, short, or music video. You will be hard pressed to find a motion picture film camera without a matte box.

Finally, there is some truth to my first, shorter definition of a matte box: they do make your camera look very professional. This can be important if you have the need to impress clients or help actors feel they're in a "better" production.

Check these links for matte box photos:

Cinetech
16X9INC
Cavision
Century Optics
Cinetactics
Petroff

Eric A Robinson · January 17th, 2005, 04:25 AM

Now I know what a matt box is.
Thanks Christopher, that was a very clear description.

Andrew Oh · January 17th, 2005, 08:48 PM

Hey Guys,

I just received my 3x lens and mine does indeed exhibit the faulty focus problem as well. I agree with A.J. that it may be a design problem. I think we should get some kind of list going of 3x lens owners that exhibit this problem so we can contact Canon. I'm starting to think that no 3x lens works perfectly with the XL2.

If the current interchangeable lens system was what Canon was trying to preserve by keeping the 1/3 chip, I would rather have had Canon switch to a 2/3 CCD and get a new line of lenses that work flawlessly.

I guess we're all stuck till now until because the 20x isn't wide enough :(

Jim Sofranko · January 17th, 2005, 09:58 PM

A few questions just to clarify...

Does this phenomenom occur only in manual focus mode?

If you rehit the focus button on the zoom outs does that correct the focus properly?

Does the focus work properly in autofocus mode?

Andrew Oh · January 18th, 2005, 12:45 AM

Hey Jim,

This phenomenon occurs in both manual and auto mode. In 24p mode, the auto focus is painfully slow so it's definitely noticeable. Besides, I'm sure a lot of us don't trust autofocus mode so it will be a problem for us to deal with. When you zoom out in manual mode, the image becomes blurry and if you hit the focus button, the image refocuses. I hope that helps Jim.

John Sandel · February 21st, 2005, 06:22 PM

Anybody know the physical dimensions of the lens? B&H don't list it, and if it's on Canon's site, I don't find it. Chris Hurd's roundup of XL lenses doesn't say, either.

Here, I found these specs:

3 5/8" W x 4 5/8" L

Can anybody confirm this? (I'm cutting foam for a flight case and don't have a 3x zoom on hand to measure.)

Chris Hurd · February 21st, 2005, 06:46 PM

Checking the instruction manual for this lens (download the PDF from Canon USA), those are the correct dimensions (without the lens hood). I think all XL2 owners should do themselves a favor and download the various PDF lens and accessory manuals that are available at the Canon USA site. Meanwhile I'll try to work in an update to my XL2 Lens Guide to include that info. Thanks for the idea,

John Sandel · February 21st, 2005, 06:51 PM

Thanks, Chris. For those who can't find it at Canon's website, here's the page.

When I click on the "Download Manuals" link there, a new window opens in my browser, but it's blank. Dunno what's up with that; I've retried several times.

Marty Hudzik · February 21st, 2005, 09:04 PM

I can't find manuals for any of the lenses and I am currently borrowing the 16x manual from a friend and would love to read the manual.

Can you point me to them please???

Please?????

Rob Lohman · February 23rd, 2005, 04:17 AM

For some reason there doesn't seem to be a link to the lenses
on the XL2 page. And the XL1S archive page is broken. However,
I saved all the manuals earlier, so I've put up the 16x manual
PDF (as in a manual lens, right?) on my site (temp!):

www.visuar.com/DVi/16m.pdf

January 16th, 2005, 08:16 AM	#92
Scott Aston Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 75	Hello Christopher, Thanks for the reply. I will call those guys at 16X9 and see what they recommend. I am suprised that as many XL2 owners that visit dvinfo, that none has responded to this question. Perhaps most don't use a matte box with the 3x or the 20x. and if that is the case, I wonder why. Perhaps there are problems when using a matte box with the XL2? __________________ Scott Aston Eyecon Pictures, Inc.

February 21st, 2005, 06:22 PM	#101
John Sandel Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: stately Eldora Road Posts: 386	How Big is Canon's 3x Zoom? Anybody know the physical dimensions of the lens? B&H don't list it, and if it's on Canon's site, I don't find it. Chris Hurd's roundup of XL lenses doesn't say, either. Here, I found these specs: 3 5/8" W x 4 5/8" L Can anybody confirm this? (I'm cutting foam for a flight case and don't have a 3x zoom on hand to measure.)

February 21st, 2005, 06:46 PM	#102
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Checking the instruction manual for this lens (download the PDF from Canon USA), those are the correct dimensions (without the lens hood). I think all XL2 owners should do themselves a favor and download the various PDF lens and accessory manuals that are available at the Canon USA site. Meanwhile I'll try to work in an update to my XL2 Lens Guide to include that info. Thanks for the idea, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 23rd, 2005, 04:17 AM	#105
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	For some reason there doesn't seem to be a link to the lenses on the XL2 page. And the XL1S archive page is broken. However, I saved all the manuals earlier, so I've put up the 16x manual PDF (as in a manual lens, right?) on my site (temp!): www.visuar.com/DVi/16m.pdf __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 16th, 2005, 04:30 AM	#91
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	Hello Scott, if no one should respond, you may want to contact James Lee, the technical support manager for 16X9INC. He should be able to tell you which Chrosziel matte box you need for the 3X wide angle lens. 16X9INC is the sole authorized US distributor for Chrosziel, who in turn provides Chrosziel products for B&H Photo, EVS, ZGC, etc. Contact him at: jamesl@16x9inc.com or 866.800.1699. Of course, any one of our sponsers should be able to help too. The 411-53 Chrosziel matte box they sell specifically for the XL2 "suits lenses up to 5.2mm or 4.5mm with one filter". I think the 3X may vignette at full wide, but to be sure contact James. Of course, they have other Chrosziel models to choose from, perhaps one better suited for the 3X? Cinetech on the other hand, offers a full size, four-stage(!) matte box that can accomodate nearly any lens. Additionally, it is a swing-away matte box so you can switch between lenses without having to remove the entire matte box. I'm 95% certain this Cinetech matte box can fit the 3X wide angle lens without problem or vignetting so long as you have the right adapter ring in place. It also has the added benefit of using either 4X5 or 4X4 filters. This setup will cost you closer to $3000 though so it is not cheap ($500 or so for the Cinetech rods and camera plate, $2400 - $2700 for the matte box depending on where you go, another $100 - $200 or so for the eye brow/french flag). Check out Cinetech for more info. Not sure about the Cavision or Formatt matte boxes.

January 16th, 2005, 08:37 AM	#93
Eric A Robinson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 82	Hi Being a bit of a novice to the XL2, and filmmaking can I ask a question:- "what is a matt box?" "under what circumstances would you use on?" Ta.

January 16th, 2005, 04:32 PM	#94
Jim Sofranko Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: West Shokan, NY Posts: 217	I have used the Vocas 2 stage matte box with the 3 x lens with no problem. I recommend the Vocas as I have found it to be of high quality and very durable. The model I have has two rotating stages on it. I purchased mine at the Filter Gallery in NYC. The Filter Gallery has a lot of different manufacturers represented there to try out.

January 16th, 2005, 06:42 PM	#95
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	Actually, the reason we see so few reports of using the XL2 with a matte box is because matte box manufacturers only just started producing camera plates/rods supports for the XL2. At least this was the case for Chrosziel who only announced their XL2 rods support just last month and in fact I'm not even sure they're shipping yet (they are however, available now for order). Whenever a new camera comes out all the matte box manufacturers have to ensure that their existing systems will work as installed or otherwise redesign and machine new parts. This is exactly what happened with the previous Chrosziel XL1s rods support, which was too short for use on the XL2. The Cinetech base plate also needed to be modified, this time because the XL2 had a slightly wider base. So not necessarily a problem with matte boxes, just that the XL2 is still very new! I only just started seeing new matte boxes for Sony's HDV camcorders as well.

January 16th, 2005, 07:16 PM	#96
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	Eric, a matte box is an overpriced product aspiring cinematographers purchase to make their DV camcorders look like film cameras. Did I say that out loud? Seriously, a matte box is simply a kind of lens hood/sun shade which you attach to the front of your camera lens. However, unlike the simple lens shade that came shipped with your camcorder, matte boxes allow you greater control over the light coming into your camera because: 1) A good matte box has a much larger shade area then a regular lens shade, extending as far out in front of the lens without getting in the shot itself. Matte boxes also frequently come with french flags or eye brows, something akin to placing your hand above your eyes when you're trying to see when its bright outdoors. In fact this is exactly how a matte box works: helps prevent stray light or too much bright light from affecting your camera's vision. 2) A good matte box allows you to use several filters without having to screw them on to the front of your lens. This is accomplished through the use of filter trays, which you can install and remove in seconds. Using multiple filters helps you create different images. Most matte boxes have at least two filter stages, higher-end matte boxes come with four or more! Search the forums on different filters you can use, but most matte boxes allow you to use 4X4 sized filters. Other sizes include 3X3, 4X5.6, or even 6X6. The larger sized filtes are found primarily in motion picture film. Something else you should know is that matte boxes can be attached directly to the lens (clamp-on) or installed via a camera plate and rods (usually 15mm in thickness). The rods solution is more expensive but will allow you to keep the weight of the matte box and filters off of your lens. Having rods also means you can enjoy the use of a follow focus and other cinema accessories. So far I've discussed the advantages of having a matte box. Drawbacks include more equipment cost, more equipment to carry and take up space in your bag, and taking more time to setup and install. Larger matte boxes can rarely be left on the camera because they just won't fit in bags made for the camera alone. So this means the matte box needs to be attached before every new shoot (imagine driving to several locations in a day, each time assembling the matte box and rods to the camera). One solution for this is to use a very large bag or case. If you shoot documentaries or run-and-gun type of footage, a large matte box may not be for you. Besides, they add more weight and can be bulky to shoot with handheld. A matte box is best for controlled filming situations, as on a narrative feature, short, or music video. You will be hard pressed to find a motion picture film camera without a matte box. Finally, there is some truth to my first, shorter definition of a matte box: they do make your camera look very professional. This can be important if you have the need to impress clients or help actors feel they're in a "better" production. Check these links for matte box photos: Cinetech 16X9INC Cavision Century Optics Cinetactics Petroff

January 17th, 2005, 04:25 AM	#97
Eric A Robinson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 82	Now I know what a matt box is. Thanks Christopher, that was a very clear description.

January 17th, 2005, 08:48 PM	#98
Andrew Oh Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 86	Hey Guys, I just received my 3x lens and mine does indeed exhibit the faulty focus problem as well. I agree with A.J. that it may be a design problem. I think we should get some kind of list going of 3x lens owners that exhibit this problem so we can contact Canon. I'm starting to think that no 3x lens works perfectly with the XL2. If the current interchangeable lens system was what Canon was trying to preserve by keeping the 1/3 chip, I would rather have had Canon switch to a 2/3 CCD and get a new line of lenses that work flawlessly. I guess we're all stuck till now until because the 20x isn't wide enough :(

January 17th, 2005, 09:58 PM	#99
Jim Sofranko Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: West Shokan, NY Posts: 217	A few questions just to clarify... Does this phenomenom occur only in manual focus mode? If you rehit the focus button on the zoom outs does that correct the focus properly? Does the focus work properly in autofocus mode?

January 18th, 2005, 12:45 AM	#100
Andrew Oh Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 86	Hey Jim, This phenomenon occurs in both manual and auto mode. In 24p mode, the auto focus is painfully slow so it's definitely noticeable. Besides, I'm sure a lot of us don't trust autofocus mode so it will be a problem for us to deal with. When you zoom out in manual mode, the image becomes blurry and if you hit the focus button, the image refocuses. I hope that helps Jim.

February 21st, 2005, 06:51 PM	#103
John Sandel Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: stately Eldora Road Posts: 386	Thanks, Chris. For those who can't find it at Canon's website, here's the page. When I click on the "Download Manuals" link there, a new window opens in my browser, but it's blank. Dunno what's up with that; I've retried several times.

February 21st, 2005, 09:04 PM	#104
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	I can't find manuals for any of the lenses and I am currently borrowing the 16x manual from a friend and would love to read the manual. Can you point me to them please??? Please?????