Shooting 60i- Beta SP quality? at DVinfo.net

Bob Andren · September 8th, 2004, 10:05 PM

I heard that shooting 60i with the XL2 the quality is almost as good as Beta SP. Comments?

Yang Wen · September 8th, 2004, 10:35 PM

we've passed that milestone a few generations ago with miniDV cams.

Greg Milneck · September 9th, 2004, 06:24 AM

I disagree. I have not seen any miniDV camera that can look as good as a HIGH-END Betacam...even the XL2.

The XL2 has by far come the closeest I've seen.

Joonas Kiviharju · September 9th, 2004, 07:09 AM

Beta SP is still a little better format than any miniDV camera will ever be. DV is an 8 bit (poor colors) format, and it doesn't even have color info sampled for every pixel. Beta SP has much more information in every aspect and the fact that it's analog doesn't make that information go away.

Graeme Nattress · September 9th, 2004, 09:20 AM

Joonas, that's totally uncorrect. BetaSP has lower resolution, about the same chroma resolution as DV, and is noisier. Analogue formats are limited by bandwidth and noise. Bandwidth directly equates to resolution - measure the luma and chroma bandwidth of BetaSP, and you'll find the chroma compares favourably to DV, but the luma is way less resolution. Noise is sort of equivalent to bit depth, and given the betaSP noise levels, 8bit is more than enough to do it justice. Note that recording bit depth is not the same as filter calculation bit depth. Even though you might have an 8bit recorded picture, it can still be valuable to calculate filter effects in floating point.

Graeme

Antoine Fabi · September 9th, 2004, 09:52 AM

hi Graeme !

yep, absolutely right !

a BetaSP/DV comparo clearly shows that DV is a lot cleaner, with more resolution.

most people compare these 2 formats this way: a 2/3" CCDs high end BetaSP against a VX2000 1/3" CCDs mini DV...

the image from the BetaSP will look better than the VX2000 because of the camera section, not because the BetaSP format is better than DV.

now, if people compare a mid priced Beta SP cam with, say, a DVX100A or a XL2
(the best 1/3" CCDs cameras today, i think), they could see that DV can look great.

...camera section is the most important, it is the source.

...if i take some footage in DV mode (format) with the Panasonic SDX900 (2/3" 16:9 CCDs), it will look fantastic.

Graeme Nattress · September 9th, 2004, 09:56 AM

Hey Antoine!

Spot on! Compare tape format with tape format, DV beats BetaSP on quality, price and size.

Compare camera to camera, and often the camera on the front of the BetaSP back will be better than the camera on the DV, with the lens of the former probably costing more than the whole camera of the latter.

However, compare like with like, and DV is the better tape format.

Graeme

Bill Pryor · September 9th, 2004, 09:58 AM

Betacam SP and DV are recording formats. To compare them in any sort of meaningful way, you have to take one camera and output to each format. For example, if you take a DSR500 (now the 570) and record to its internal recorder while at the same time recording via the 26 pin output to a Betacam SP deck, and then compare the two recordings, most people would say the DVCAM recording looks better. But if you compare a $40,000 camera recording in Betacam SP to a $2000 camera recording to DV, then the Betacam is obviously going to look better.

Rob Lohman · September 9th, 2004, 10:02 AM

Are we (not pointing to anyone) perhaps mixing up Digibeta with BetaSP?

Bill Pryor · September 9th, 2004, 10:27 AM

Uh...not me. Why? I only mentioned the DSR500/570.

September 8th, 2004, 10:05 PM	#1
Bob Andren New Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New Rochelle, NY 10801 (near NYC) Posts: 24	Shooting 60i- Beta SP quality? I heard that shooting 60i with the XL2 the quality is almost as good as Beta SP. Comments?

September 9th, 2004, 06:24 AM	#3
Greg Milneck Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 145	I disagree. I have not seen any miniDV camera that can look as good as a HIGH-END Betacam...even the XL2. The XL2 has by far come the closeest I've seen. __________________ www.digitalfx.tv

September 9th, 2004, 09:20 AM	#5
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Joonas, that's totally uncorrect. BetaSP has lower resolution, about the same chroma resolution as DV, and is noisier. Analogue formats are limited by bandwidth and noise. Bandwidth directly equates to resolution - measure the luma and chroma bandwidth of BetaSP, and you'll find the chroma compares favourably to DV, but the luma is way less resolution. Noise is sort of equivalent to bit depth, and given the betaSP noise levels, 8bit is more than enough to do it justice. Note that recording bit depth is not the same as filter calculation bit depth. Even though you might have an 8bit recorded picture, it can still be valuable to calculate filter effects in floating point. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

September 9th, 2004, 09:56 AM	#7
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Hey Antoine! Spot on! Compare tape format with tape format, DV beats BetaSP on quality, price and size. Compare camera to camera, and often the camera on the front of the BetaSP back will be better than the camera on the DV, with the lens of the former probably costing more than the whole camera of the latter. However, compare like with like, and DV is the better tape format. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

September 9th, 2004, 10:02 AM	#9
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Are we (not pointing to anyone) perhaps mixing up Digibeta with BetaSP? __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 8th, 2004, 10:35 PM	#2
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	we've passed that milestone a few generations ago with miniDV cams.

September 9th, 2004, 07:09 AM	#4
Joonas Kiviharju Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 52	Beta SP is still a little better format than any miniDV camera will ever be. DV is an 8 bit (poor colors) format, and it doesn't even have color info sampled for every pixel. Beta SP has much more information in every aspect and the fact that it's analog doesn't make that information go away.

September 9th, 2004, 09:52 AM	#6
Antoine Fabi Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: sherbrooke (Quebec) Canada Posts: 108	hi Graeme ! yep, absolutely right ! a BetaSP/DV comparo clearly shows that DV is a lot cleaner, with more resolution. most people compare these 2 formats this way: a 2/3" CCDs high end BetaSP against a VX2000 1/3" CCDs mini DV... the image from the BetaSP will look better than the VX2000 because of the camera section, not because the BetaSP format is better than DV. now, if people compare a mid priced Beta SP cam with, say, a DVX100A or a XL2 (the best 1/3" CCDs cameras today, i think), they could see that DV can look great. ...camera section is the most important, it is the source. ...if i take some footage in DV mode (format) with the Panasonic SDX900 (2/3" 16:9 CCDs), it will look fantastic.

September 9th, 2004, 09:58 AM	#8
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Betacam SP and DV are recording formats. To compare them in any sort of meaningful way, you have to take one camera and output to each format. For example, if you take a DSR500 (now the 570) and record to its internal recorder while at the same time recording via the 26 pin output to a Betacam SP deck, and then compare the two recordings, most people would say the DVCAM recording looks better. But if you compare a $40,000 camera recording in Betacam SP to a $2000 camera recording to DV, then the Betacam is obviously going to look better.

September 9th, 2004, 10:27 AM	#10
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Uh...not me. Why? I only mentioned the DSR500/570.