HDR-FX1

Lawrence Stevens · September 7th, 2004, 12:29 PM

Hi guys

Just surfing around the web

found out about this new HD Sony Camera, is it a replacement to PD170? Are sony scared by the imminent release of the XL2

Does anyone know about this camera?

Should I hold off buying an XL2?

Argghhhhh... You always think you are 1 step ahead of the game, then suddenly more new info appears to affect your decisions!

Have a look at this website here

http://www.global-dvc.org/Sony%20HDV.htm

Let me know your thoughts

Regards
Lawrence

Joshua Starnes · September 7th, 2004, 12:35 PM

A camera in the hand now beats two in the bush that may be slightly better but you won't know for sure for another 6 months while they are tried in the field.

If you keep waiting for the next best thing, you're going to be waiting for ever.

Lawrence Stevens · September 7th, 2004, 12:40 PM

I totally agree with you

However, how imminent is this camera? If it is coming in 6-12 months there is n point in waiting, however, if it is coming within 1 -2 months then I would wait.

Personally I think Sony are worried

Look how recently they released the PD170, all these prosumer cameras have around a 2 - 3 year cycle, however with the PD170 released recently, they are already looking like they are to replace it!

I just dont know anymore, and I have already preordered an XL2 in the UK!

Paul Matwiy · September 7th, 2004, 12:45 PM

Not necessarily. Having worked with MPEG-2 codecs for 7 years, I'm not ready to plunk $$ down on a single pass, MPEG-2, encoded on the fly HD camera. Reasons?

1) Most consumers think that a progressive DVD image is high definition. We can generate that source from a 24p or 30p, 16x9 image on an XL2.

2) The MPEG encoders I have used on NTSC sources (Cinemacraft, Adobe, etc) do best when using higher, variable bit rates with a minimum of 2 passes. HD, I would have to think would be more demanding.

3) Since MPEG-2 is a lossy compression scheme, editing of the footage is destructive. Any edit would require regenerating the necessary reference frames and re-encoding all the intermediate difference frames with attendant artifacts and losses.

4) Using the footage for normal NTSC purposes (DVD, regular video) would require transcoding and down converting the image and losses would occur.

Remember that 24p and 30p images are generally considered the first step in the HD ladder. Give me a 720p, 4:1:1, lossless camera system, and I'll reconsider. My XL-2 will do just fine for the next 3-5 years.

Paul

Aaron Shaw · September 7th, 2004, 12:47 PM

SONY *is* worried ;). Sony is indeed singular (as it is a sole company) :D

I have heard that this camera is expected out in approx 3 months. Not sure how accurate that is or where the information comes from....

see here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX2/YaBB.pl?board=XL2;action=display;num=1094548720;start=0

Scott Moody · September 7th, 2004, 12:49 PM

price: <$3700

with a higher-end version Q1 of next year...

it's best to get used to rapid release cycles from here on out.

source:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-Announces-High-Definition1080i-HDR-FX1-First-3-CCD-HDV-Camcorder.htm

Bill Ravens · September 7th, 2004, 12:49 PM

the same bruhaha ensued when the JVC HD-1/HD10 was announced. IMHO, HDV is a LOOOOONG ways from being a viable format for prosumer use. DV is here, today.

I don't worry, a bit, about this initial entry of Sony into the HDV market. There's some mahor issues here, including XLR input and video output in 24p. The HDV format doesn't include 24p.

And, how about editting and final output quality? Admittedly, there are several NLE's than can or will handle HDV. Nevertheless, I think the losses assocated with de-convolving and re-encoding MPEG2 for NLE's are greater than those with DV. In the end, a beautiful native HDV footage may be worthless when held up to an editted DV footage.

The JVC HD cams are, arguably, frought with problems and user-unfriendliness. Sony's entry certainly isn't and won't be the holy grail.
What, me worry? nahhh!!

Lawrence Stevens · September 7th, 2004, 12:50 PM

So are you saying that in order to get the higher resolution of the new sony cam onto the miniDV/DVCAM tape, it is not using the miniDV codec, but instead Mpeg-2 compression?

If this is so, then you are absolutely right, that is not good for editing

Lawrence

Barry Green · September 7th, 2004, 12:52 PM

The Sony is supposed to hit the stores in the next couple of months.

Personally I think it would be irresponsible to buy something like the XL2 if you don't *need* it right now, when there's a less-expensive and *potentially* more interesting choice just 9 weeks away.

It's not like a rumored "some day it may come out" type of thing, Sony's put a street date of October 15th on it (according to some posts, November according to others).

If you need an XL2 now, get it now. A couple of good jobs and it'll pay for itself. But if you don't NEED it now, why buy it now? Why not wait and see how the Sony compares, for your particular needs?

Joel Guy · September 7th, 2004, 12:53 PM

With the amount of information currently released about the camera, there is no way it will be out in a month or two. Surely, Sony will want months of anticipation leading up to the release of their first prosumer HD camera. And just think about all the delays that accompany any major electronic release. To me, it just seems like Sony is trying to take consumer attention away from the new XL2, and to make those same consumers doubt their decision to buy an XL2. "If Sony's will be out in just a few months...."

Barry Green · September 7th, 2004, 12:53 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Lawrence Stevens : So are you saying that in order to get the higher resolution of the new sony cam onto the miniDV/DVCAM tape, it is not using the miniDV codec, but instead Mpeg-2 compression?-->>>

Exactly.

Barry Green · September 7th, 2004, 12:55 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Joel Guy : With the amount of information currently released about the camera, there is no way it will be out in a month or two. Surely, Sony will want months of anticipation leading up to the release of their first prosumer HD camera. ...." -->>>

Can't agree. Sony's already announced that it will be in stores in November, and some people are saying October 15th.

Canon announced the XL2 and it was in the stores a few weeks later. Panasonic announced the DVX would be available in Oct. 2002, and they actually *beat* their date by a few days. So I would fully expect the Sony to be on store shelves in November.

Lawrence Stevens · September 7th, 2004, 12:55 PM

If we look from a quality point of view though, how can we professionally edit high quality footage frame accuratley when it is compressed in mpeg-2 format? If this is indeed the way in which the HDR-FX1 works?

Thoughts?

Bill Ravens · September 7th, 2004, 01:06 PM

The Sony will work in HDV. HDV is NOT HD!! It's a consumer version. As such, it uses sufficient compression to allow everyday computers (3 gig processors, 1 gig RAM, standard IDE Hard drives, etc, etc) to process the video stream. It still fits on standard DV type tape.

Barry Green · September 7th, 2004, 01:30 PM

What do you mean, HDV is not HD? HD is many things... HDCAM, DVCPROHD, HDCAM SR, etc... HDV complies with ATSC HD specifications, so why do you say it isn't HD?

You can edit HDV frame-accurately. The JVC HD1 has been on the market for a year now, and editing solutions are already in place that deliver frame-accurate edits. Heck, you can drop an HD1 .ts transport stream right on the timeline in Vegas and be editing immediately, frame-accurate. CineForm and others are developing high-speed realtime editing solutions for HDV.

September 7th, 2004, 12:29 PM	#1
Lawrence Stevens Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 67	HDR-FX1 - Shoud we be worried? Hi guys Just surfing around the web found out about this new HD Sony Camera, is it a replacement to PD170? Are sony scared by the imminent release of the XL2 Does anyone know about this camera? Should I hold off buying an XL2? Argghhhhh... You always think you are 1 step ahead of the game, then suddenly more new info appears to affect your decisions! Have a look at this website here http://www.global-dvc.org/Sony%20HDV.htm Let me know your thoughts Regards Lawrence

September 7th, 2004, 12:45 PM	#4
Paul Matwiy Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Marin, CA Posts: 85	HDR-FX1 Not necessarily. Having worked with MPEG-2 codecs for 7 years, I'm not ready to plunk $$ down on a single pass, MPEG-2, encoded on the fly HD camera. Reasons? 1) Most consumers think that a progressive DVD image is high definition. We can generate that source from a 24p or 30p, 16x9 image on an XL2. 2) The MPEG encoders I have used on NTSC sources (Cinemacraft, Adobe, etc) do best when using higher, variable bit rates with a minimum of 2 passes. HD, I would have to think would be more demanding. 3) Since MPEG-2 is a lossy compression scheme, editing of the footage is destructive. Any edit would require regenerating the necessary reference frames and re-encoding all the intermediate difference frames with attendant artifacts and losses. 4) Using the footage for normal NTSC purposes (DVD, regular video) would require transcoding and down converting the image and losses would occur. Remember that 24p and 30p images are generally considered the first step in the HD ladder. Give me a 720p, 4:1:1, lossless camera system, and I'll reconsider. My XL-2 will do just fine for the next 3-5 years. Paul __________________ Paul

September 7th, 2004, 12:49 PM	#6
Scott Moody New Boot Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: new york, ny Posts: 8	november release... price: <$3700 with a higher-end version Q1 of next year... it's best to get used to rapid release cycles from here on out. source: http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-Announces-High-Definition1080i-HDR-FX1-First-3-CCD-HDV-Camcorder.htm

September 7th, 2004, 12:35 PM	#2
Joshua Starnes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 356	A camera in the hand now beats two in the bush that may be slightly better but you won't know for sure for another 6 months while they are tried in the field. If you keep waiting for the next best thing, you're going to be waiting for ever.

September 7th, 2004, 12:40 PM	#3
Lawrence Stevens Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 67	I totally agree with you However, how imminent is this camera? If it is coming in 6-12 months there is n point in waiting, however, if it is coming within 1 -2 months then I would wait. Personally I think Sony are worried Look how recently they released the PD170, all these prosumer cameras have around a 2 - 3 year cycle, however with the PD170 released recently, they are already looking like they are to replace it! I just dont know anymore, and I have already preordered an XL2 in the UK!

September 7th, 2004, 12:47 PM	#5
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	SONY is worried ;). Sony is indeed singular (as it is a sole company) :D I have heard that this camera is expected out in approx 3 months. Not sure how accurate that is or where the information comes from.... see here: http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX2/YaBB.pl?board=XL2;action=display;num=1094548720;start=0

September 7th, 2004, 12:49 PM	#7
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	the same bruhaha ensued when the JVC HD-1/HD10 was announced. IMHO, HDV is a LOOOOONG ways from being a viable format for prosumer use. DV is here, today. I don't worry, a bit, about this initial entry of Sony into the HDV market. There's some mahor issues here, including XLR input and video output in 24p. The HDV format doesn't include 24p. And, how about editting and final output quality? Admittedly, there are several NLE's than can or will handle HDV. Nevertheless, I think the losses assocated with de-convolving and re-encoding MPEG2 for NLE's are greater than those with DV. In the end, a beautiful native HDV footage may be worthless when held up to an editted DV footage. The JVC HD cams are, arguably, frought with problems and user-unfriendliness. Sony's entry certainly isn't and won't be the holy grail. What, me worry? nahhh!!

September 7th, 2004, 12:50 PM	#8
Lawrence Stevens Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 67	So are you saying that in order to get the higher resolution of the new sony cam onto the miniDV/DVCAM tape, it is not using the miniDV codec, but instead Mpeg-2 compression? If this is so, then you are absolutely right, that is not good for editing Lawrence

September 7th, 2004, 12:52 PM	#9
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The Sony is supposed to hit the stores in the next couple of months. Personally I think it would be irresponsible to buy something like the XL2 if you don't need it right now, when there's a less-expensive and potentially more interesting choice just 9 weeks away. It's not like a rumored "some day it may come out" type of thing, Sony's put a street date of October 15th on it (according to some posts, November according to others). If you need an XL2 now, get it now. A couple of good jobs and it'll pay for itself. But if you don't NEED it now, why buy it now? Why not wait and see how the Sony compares, for your particular needs?

September 7th, 2004, 12:53 PM	#10
Joel Guy Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: NYC, NY Posts: 151	With the amount of information currently released about the camera, there is no way it will be out in a month or two. Surely, Sony will want months of anticipation leading up to the release of their first prosumer HD camera. And just think about all the delays that accompany any major electronic release. To me, it just seems like Sony is trying to take consumer attention away from the new XL2, and to make those same consumers doubt their decision to buy an XL2. "If Sony's will be out in just a few months...."

September 7th, 2004, 12:55 PM	#12
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	<<<-- Originally posted by Joel Guy : With the amount of information currently released about the camera, there is no way it will be out in a month or two. Surely, Sony will want months of anticipation leading up to the release of their first prosumer HD camera. ...." -->>> Can't agree. Sony's already announced that it will be in stores in November, and some people are saying October 15th. Canon announced the XL2 and it was in the stores a few weeks later. Panasonic announced the DVX would be available in Oct. 2002, and they actually beat their date by a few days. So I would fully expect the Sony to be on store shelves in November.

September 7th, 2004, 01:06 PM	#14
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	The Sony will work in HDV. HDV is NOT HD!! It's a consumer version. As such, it uses sufficient compression to allow everyday computers (3 gig processors, 1 gig RAM, standard IDE Hard drives, etc, etc) to process the video stream. It still fits on standard DV type tape.

September 7th, 2004, 01:30 PM	#15
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	What do you mean, HDV is not HD? HD is many things... HDCAM, DVCPROHD, HDCAM SR, etc... HDV complies with ATSC HD specifications, so why do you say it isn't HD? You can edit HDV frame-accurately. The JVC HD1 has been on the market for a year now, and editing solutions are already in place that deliver frame-accurate edits. Heck, you can drop an HD1 .ts transport stream right on the timeline in Vegas and be editing immediately, frame-accurate. CineForm and others are developing high-speed realtime editing solutions for HDV.