XL2 image problem

Kevin Gilvear · November 19th, 2004, 03:10 PM

I'm curious about the monitor thing too as I will be purchasing one at the end of the month. Would most 7" or higher TFT monitors show this kind of thing? I'm asuming this is all trial and error really and knowing how to account for such problems

Barry Goyette · November 19th, 2004, 03:13 PM

Yes the viewfinder on the camera, being relatively of low resolution will exhibit much more moire than say my sony wega HD set. Theoretically a monitor that displays in progressive scan at the same resolution as the source would be the optimum. So, for instance a quicktime file played through the quicktime player on a computer monitor at full size wouldn't have a problem (if there was no moire in the image to start with). I don't know that there is a "perfect" monitor out there, but the higher the resolution the better is a starting point.

The other ( and more realistic ) option is to shoot for your intended monitor. Canon's old frame mode did this...essentially lowering the vertical resolution 25%. We all thought it was a defect until Panasonic came up with it as an "option" on their progressive scan DVX to help eliminate line twitter and other problems related to moire. You can lower the vertical resolution on the xl2 in the same way, or employ a number of other ways to lower the camera's ability to see fine detail and patterns.

Barry

Kevin Gilvear · November 19th, 2004, 03:19 PM

are most monitors labelled "high resolution" progressive scan? I haven't really seen any with progressive scan listed as an option.

will lowering the camera resolution be harmful in any way later on when editing?

Max Morris · November 19th, 2004, 06:48 PM

The problem is most people do not have a high res monitor to view the the nice images that come from the XL2 so all of you wedding and event people out there are going to have a tough time getting a good looking product for your clients.

Unless you could give away a nice monitor with each wedding package so they could enjoy the nice picture on the XL2.

I have been shooting on a Sony DSR 570, 2/3 inch chips, I would expect it to be as high if not higher in resolution than the XL2 and I do not see the same problem. I shot them side by side at the same image and did not get any aliasing or moire on the Sony and the canon was going crazy. Both were viewed on the same monitor.

Barry Goyette · November 19th, 2004, 07:56 PM

Max

A few questions...the comparison you made...was the xl2 in progressive mode or interlaced? There is a substantial difference in resolution between the two, and most people who have seen problems have reported it in progressive. The DSR-570 is a 60i camera, so regardless of its potential resolution, it is a different animal. Interlaced video uses a pixel averaging scheme which effectively blurs fine details like those in a moire inducing pattern. (there used to be an explanation of this linked at adam wilts site, but I doesn't appear to work any more).

Second did you try the low detail setting? Both canon and Panasonic recommend it for viewing on an SD monitor.

Finally, are you shooting in 4:3 or 16:9? If you are shooting in 4:3, my experience is that the in camera sharpness is set too high on the xl2, and needs to be lowered to achieve a truly "neutral" sharpness position.

wait...I found the article...I think it might help explain some of this...

http://videosystems.com/shoot/video_...now/index.html

cheerio

Barry

Max Morris · November 19th, 2004, 10:33 PM

Thank you so much for that info. I think I will swap out the camera for another one and see if I just have a bad model.

Thanks again.

Lauri Kettunen · November 20th, 2004, 02:13 AM

Well put Barry, a good and sensible explanation.

I've often wondered myself when people report about different findings, that there are so many issues left open that it is almost certain that we will end up of talking of different things. For instance in this thread, when Kenneth said he captured an avi image to Premiere Pro 1.5, the issue of whether his monitor window was set to 100% magnification was not cleaar. And still, as Barry explaination clearly shows, this is the crucial point when discussing of what we see on the monitor.

What comes to the Xl2 viewfinder, it has obviously its shortcomings. Just recently I had the camera outdoors for several hours (in a insulated bag) and it was bit cold (around -5C), and I noticed the viewfinder became rather slow. As a result anything which was moving did not appear smooth. But, back home the recorded image was just perfect on the monitor. (My first experience suggests the Xl1 viewfinder tolerated better cold conditions in this sense. I had similar problems with the Xl1 only when it got below -15C.)

Barry Goyette · November 20th, 2004, 09:07 AM

Lauri

thanks for the info on the viewfinder...I never would have suspected that the viewfinder would have problems with the cold. It gets cold here too, last night was a blustery 50F (+10C)...I had to put on long pants!.

Barry

Kevin Kocak · December 3rd, 2004, 03:20 PM

I noticed what I thought was a moire problem with my XL2 when shooting in areas with a lot of grass or trees and a lot of times on rooftops. I have done a lot of research and found out that the more accurate term would be arftifacting. I sent my camera off to canon, which they replaced with a brand new one, I found that I had the same problem with the brand new camera. After much research, heartache and a long chat with the Canon regional rep I tried playing with the settings. I found this helped significantly. I lowered the sharpness and turned on the noise reduction which helped out significantly. I now can shoot an acceptable image in a grassy area which I could not to before. Just wanted to share with anyone else who might be experiencing the same problems.

Rob Lohman · December 4th, 2004, 06:43 AM

Welcome aboard DVInfo.net Keving and thanks for sharing that tip!

Would you happen to have comparison frame exports?

Kevin Kocak · December 4th, 2004, 09:03 AM

I am unable to post any right this second as I am already behind on 2 projects but as soon as I get caught up I will definitely share some comparison pics.

Anthony Marotti · February 15th, 2005, 05:49 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Marty Hudzik : Find it hard to believe that there would be problems already and it's not even officially released. -->>>

WOW these images are beautiful !!

I have never seen such images pulled from MiniDV !!

How did you do it... How can I do it ??

Thanks!

Marty Hudzik · February 15th, 2005, 09:16 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Anthony Marotti : <<<-- Originally posted by Marty Hudzik : Find it hard to believe that there would be problems already and it's not even officially released. -->>>

WOW these images are beautiful !!

I have never seen such images pulled from MiniDV !!

How did you do it... How can I do it ??

Thanks! -->>>

Anthony,
What images are you referring to? I am asking because you quoted me in your post but I have no idea what images you are talking about.

Per Oellgaard · February 16th, 2005, 04:02 AM

I got a Canon XL2 PAL in december 2004. I love it, but noticed this moire on my pictures ( roofs and brickwalls) I phoned every expert here in Denmark, but coud´t really explane the problem. Then I was "lucky". A guy told me to submit this forum and so I did. I used days inside my head to create a question about my problem ( my english is limited ). And just before I started to write I found this discussion exactly about the moire problem that I was looking for. I´ve been using days to read all this. Wow, this was really professional experts words. But the more I read the more confused I got.
Am I stupid. Is there no conclusion to the moire problem.
Can I do anything, buy anything, change anything to minimize this moire thing.

Chris Hurd · February 16th, 2005, 08:35 AM

Hello Per,

Welcome to DV Info Net.

<< Wow, this was really professional experts words. >>

Well, not all of it... the song lyrics I wrote, that was neither professional nor expert.

<< But the more I read the more confused I got. >>

Me, too. And I own this place!

<< Am I stupid. Is there no conclusion to the moire problem.
Can I do anything, buy anything, change anything to minimize this moire thing. >>

You are not stupid and there seems to be no conclusion. What is interesting is that this conversation ended last December and nobody has said anything since then. If anybody else has this problem, I sure would like for them to post about it here.

Meanwhile, I wonder if this is of any help:

I don't know if this will have any effect at all, but trying switching the Vertical Detail setting to the opposite of whatever it's set at right now. In the camera, this is on the 4th menu page under Custom Presets. In the owner's manual it is described on page 69. You might try Noise Reduction as well.

Remember after these settings are changed you have to activate the Custom Preset (a lot of people seem to forget that step for some reason). Let me know if this helps,

November 19th, 2004, 06:48 PM	#139
Max Morris New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 12	The problem is most people do not have a high res monitor to view the the nice images that come from the XL2 so all of you wedding and event people out there are going to have a tough time getting a good looking product for your clients. Unless you could give away a nice monitor with each wedding package so they could enjoy the nice picture on the XL2. I have been shooting on a Sony DSR 570, 2/3 inch chips, I would expect it to be as high if not higher in resolution than the XL2 and I do not see the same problem. I shot them side by side at the same image and did not get any aliasing or moire on the Sony and the canon was going crazy. Both were viewed on the same monitor. __________________ me thinks me likes

November 19th, 2004, 10:33 PM	#141
Max Morris New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 12	Thank you so much for that info. I think I will swap out the camera for another one and see if I just have a bad model. Thanks again. __________________ me thinks me likes

December 4th, 2004, 06:43 AM	#145
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Welcome aboard DVInfo.net Keving and thanks for sharing that tip! Would you happen to have comparison frame exports? __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

February 15th, 2005, 05:49 AM	#147
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	<<<-- Originally posted by Marty Hudzik : Find it hard to believe that there would be problems already and it's not even officially released. -->>> WOW these images are beautiful !! I have never seen such images pulled from MiniDV !! How did you do it... How can I do it ?? Thanks! __________________ AM

February 16th, 2005, 04:02 AM	#149
Per Oellgaard New Boot Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 9	What to do about it I got a Canon XL2 PAL in december 2004. I love it, but noticed this moire on my pictures ( roofs and brickwalls) I phoned every expert here in Denmark, but coud´t really explane the problem. Then I was "lucky". A guy told me to submit this forum and so I did. I used days inside my head to create a question about my problem ( my english is limited ). And just before I started to write I found this discussion exactly about the moire problem that I was looking for. I´ve been using days to read all this. Wow, this was really professional experts words. But the more I read the more confused I got. Am I stupid. Is there no conclusion to the moire problem. Can I do anything, buy anything, change anything to minimize this moire thing.

November 19th, 2004, 03:10 PM	#136
Kevin Gilvear Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Milton Keynes, UK Posts: 126	I'm curious about the monitor thing too as I will be purchasing one at the end of the month. Would most 7" or higher TFT monitors show this kind of thing? I'm asuming this is all trial and error really and knowing how to account for such problems

November 19th, 2004, 03:13 PM	#137
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	Yes the viewfinder on the camera, being relatively of low resolution will exhibit much more moire than say my sony wega HD set. Theoretically a monitor that displays in progressive scan at the same resolution as the source would be the optimum. So, for instance a quicktime file played through the quicktime player on a computer monitor at full size wouldn't have a problem (if there was no moire in the image to start with). I don't know that there is a "perfect" monitor out there, but the higher the resolution the better is a starting point. The other ( and more realistic ) option is to shoot for your intended monitor. Canon's old frame mode did this...essentially lowering the vertical resolution 25%. We all thought it was a defect until Panasonic came up with it as an "option" on their progressive scan DVX to help eliminate line twitter and other problems related to moire. You can lower the vertical resolution on the xl2 in the same way, or employ a number of other ways to lower the camera's ability to see fine detail and patterns. Barry

November 19th, 2004, 03:19 PM	#138
Kevin Gilvear Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Milton Keynes, UK Posts: 126	are most monitors labelled "high resolution" progressive scan? I haven't really seen any with progressive scan listed as an option. will lowering the camera resolution be harmful in any way later on when editing?

November 19th, 2004, 07:56 PM	#140
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	Max A few questions...the comparison you made...was the xl2 in progressive mode or interlaced? There is a substantial difference in resolution between the two, and most people who have seen problems have reported it in progressive. The DSR-570 is a 60i camera, so regardless of its potential resolution, it is a different animal. Interlaced video uses a pixel averaging scheme which effectively blurs fine details like those in a moire inducing pattern. (there used to be an explanation of this linked at adam wilts site, but I doesn't appear to work any more). Second did you try the low detail setting? Both canon and Panasonic recommend it for viewing on an SD monitor. Finally, are you shooting in 4:3 or 16:9? If you are shooting in 4:3, my experience is that the in camera sharpness is set too high on the xl2, and needs to be lowered to achieve a truly "neutral" sharpness position. wait...I found the article...I think it might help explain some of this... http://videosystems.com/shoot/video_...now/index.html cheerio Barry

November 20th, 2004, 02:13 AM	#142
Lauri Kettunen Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kangasala, Finland Posts: 445	Well put Barry, a good and sensible explanation. I've often wondered myself when people report about different findings, that there are so many issues left open that it is almost certain that we will end up of talking of different things. For instance in this thread, when Kenneth said he captured an avi image to Premiere Pro 1.5, the issue of whether his monitor window was set to 100% magnification was not cleaar. And still, as Barry explaination clearly shows, this is the crucial point when discussing of what we see on the monitor. What comes to the Xl2 viewfinder, it has obviously its shortcomings. Just recently I had the camera outdoors for several hours (in a insulated bag) and it was bit cold (around -5C), and I noticed the viewfinder became rather slow. As a result anything which was moving did not appear smooth. But, back home the recorded image was just perfect on the monitor. (My first experience suggests the Xl1 viewfinder tolerated better cold conditions in this sense. I had similar problems with the Xl1 only when it got below -15C.)

November 20th, 2004, 09:07 AM	#143
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	Lauri thanks for the info on the viewfinder...I never would have suspected that the viewfinder would have problems with the cold. It gets cold here too, last night was a blustery 50F (+10C)...I had to put on long pants!. Barry

December 3rd, 2004, 03:20 PM	#144
Kevin Kocak Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Tampa, Fl Posts: 149	I noticed what I thought was a moire problem with my XL2 when shooting in areas with a lot of grass or trees and a lot of times on rooftops. I have done a lot of research and found out that the more accurate term would be arftifacting. I sent my camera off to canon, which they replaced with a brand new one, I found that I had the same problem with the brand new camera. After much research, heartache and a long chat with the Canon regional rep I tried playing with the settings. I found this helped significantly. I lowered the sharpness and turned on the noise reduction which helped out significantly. I now can shoot an acceptable image in a grassy area which I could not to before. Just wanted to share with anyone else who might be experiencing the same problems.

December 4th, 2004, 09:03 AM	#146
Kevin Kocak Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Tampa, Fl Posts: 149	I am unable to post any right this second as I am already behind on 2 projects but as soon as I get caught up I will definitely share some comparison pics.

February 15th, 2005, 09:16 AM	#148
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	<<<-- Originally posted by Anthony Marotti : <<<-- Originally posted by Marty Hudzik : Find it hard to believe that there would be problems already and it's not even officially released. -->>> WOW these images are beautiful !! I have never seen such images pulled from MiniDV !! How did you do it... How can I do it ?? Thanks! -->>> Anthony, What images are you referring to? I am asking because you quoted me in your post but I have no idea what images you are talking about.

February 16th, 2005, 08:35 AM	#150
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Hello Per, Welcome to DV Info Net. << Wow, this was really professional experts words. >> Well, not all of it... the song lyrics I wrote, that was neither professional nor expert. << But the more I read the more confused I got. >> Me, too. And I own this place! << Am I stupid. Is there no conclusion to the moire problem. Can I do anything, buy anything, change anything to minimize this moire thing. >> You are not stupid and there seems to be no conclusion. What is interesting is that this conversation ended last December and nobody has said anything since then. If anybody else has this problem, I sure would like for them to post about it here. Meanwhile, I wonder if this is of any help: I don't know if this will have any effect at all, but trying switching the Vertical Detail setting to the opposite of whatever it's set at right now. In the camera, this is on the 4th menu page under Custom Presets. In the owner's manual it is described on page 69. You might try Noise Reduction as well. Remember after these settings are changed you have to activate the Custom Preset (a lot of people seem to forget that step for some reason). Let me know if this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!