Confirmed: XL2 has a 12-bit DSP

David Ziegelheim · August 13th, 2004, 08:57 AM

Not quite that bad. The CRT viewfinder is available. As is a manual lens. And in the next step up, Canon offers a 12x wide angle lens with optional doubler.

Just make a 1/3" version of the lens available for the XL chassis.

Chris Hurd · August 13th, 2004, 10:19 AM

I assume you're referring to the 1/2" Canon YH12x4.8 IRS-A (with 2x extender), which carries a pricetag of more than $7,000 USD. The 1/2" Canon YH12x4.8 KRS-A (without 2x extender) sells for more than $5,000 USD. And these are the inexpensive ones which Canon Broadcast markets as "semi-pro."

A 1/3" version with an XL mount would really not be much less expensive. Plus, the zoom motor / hand grip would have to be removed in order to clear the built-in hand grip of the XL2. So you'd lose a lot of functionality right there. Given the current pricing, how much would you be willing to pay for that lens?

Bill Pryor · August 13th, 2004, 10:47 AM

Really? That's a minor thing, but always a major irritant for me when I'm shooting with the 250. At the end of takes I like to flip on the bars and record a few seconds, and that's a pain when you have to go into the menu.
From all I've read about the XL2, and heard, it should be a very cool camera for shooting 16:9, which I like to do. A friend of mine who works for IFP-L.A. saw one a few weeks ago when the Canon rep took it by their offices, and he was impressed. They're doing a workshop in about a month or so with it, so I'll get a report from somebody whose eyes I trust.

Chris Hurd · August 13th, 2004, 11:10 AM

When you hear from IFP-L.A., Bill, please pass it on here. I'm also interested in what they think about it.

David Ziegelheim · August 13th, 2004, 11:47 AM

I though it was closer to $3k without the doubler. I was wrong.

What I would like is a wider angle and maybe a shorter range in a lens that can use a follow focus. Something more or less similar to the DVX100A, but going even a little wider still (just under 4mm).

When I can find what I am looking for--16:9, progressive scan (24 and 30 f/s), WA lens, significant electronic controls, and hopefully 1/2 CCD--I would expect to spend $8-10k.

If I want a LCD monitor, a 7" Panasonic can be clipped on top. Or use a portable CRT.

If everything is in order, I think I will rent one later this year with the Mini35. However in the camera that is purchased and sits around to be used ad hoc, the desired features are needed. The two Panasonics (DVX100A, DVC-200) are close, as the XL2 seems to be.

Bill Pryor · August 13th, 2004, 12:51 PM

The DVC200 doesn't do progressive scan or 24fps. No other half inch camera does either. You're stuck with 1/3" or jump up to 2/3".

John Mercer · August 13th, 2004, 03:42 PM

"When I can find what I am looking for--16:9, progressive scan (24 and 30 f/s), WA lens, significant electronic controls, and hopefully 1/2 CCD--I would expect to spend $8-10k."

Like Bill said. The next cheapest camera with these features than the XL2 (it has WA - the 3x and 'significant electronic controls', but no 1/2" CCD) is the Panasonic SDX900 DV50 camera - and you'll have to pay a lot more than $8-10k.

It's great that the XL2 has a 12bit DSP, but it kind of stood to logical reason IMO.

Ignacio Rodriguez · August 13th, 2004, 03:51 PM

> It's great that the XL2 has a 12bit DSP

It is. But is it 12 bits for each primary color or for the full RGB?

Aaron Koolen · August 13th, 2004, 04:04 PM

Ignacio, I understand the scepticism - companies always tell mistruths about this sort of thing. BUT really would cannon have what would amount to an average of 4 bits per RGB? No F@*&#ing way they would - they couldn't be that cheap. If they do I'll eat my XM2 ;)

Aaron

John Mercer · August 13th, 2004, 04:16 PM

12 bits for each primary colour would be 36bit surely?

This is really starting to be obsessive. It is a 12bit DSP that ends up producing an 8 bit 4:1:1 NTSC or 4:2:0 PAL processed DV25 signal. It is the same as the DVX100A.

BTW the 2/3" chip Sony DSR 570 DVCAM only has a 10 bit DSP and nobody complains about that camera's image.

Bill Pryor · August 13th, 2004, 04:23 PM

Nobody complains about the 500/570 because it's not in the same market as the XL2. If it sold for the same price as the DVX100a, then people would complain about it.

David Ziegelheim · August 13th, 2004, 04:43 PM

The DSR3x0 and 5x0 came out when 10-bits was leading edge. New Panasonic and Ikegami cameras are 12-bit, and presumably the next generation of Sonys will be 12- or 14-bit.

Ignacio Rodriguez · August 13th, 2004, 05:18 PM

My current Sony does 14-bit processing.

Jacques Mersereau · August 14th, 2004, 08:15 PM

I don't care if the XL2 is ONLY twelve bit and 720x480, I'm still going to buy one as long as they're still white.

David Ziegelheim · August 14th, 2004, 09:47 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : I don't care if the I'm still going to buy one as long as they're still white. -->>>

Is white the school color?

August 13th, 2004, 10:19 AM	#17
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	I assume you're referring to the 1/2" Canon YH12x4.8 IRS-A (with 2x extender), which carries a pricetag of more than $7,000 USD. The 1/2" Canon YH12x4.8 KRS-A (without 2x extender) sells for more than $5,000 USD. And these are the inexpensive ones which Canon Broadcast markets as "semi-pro." A 1/3" version with an XL mount would really not be much less expensive. Plus, the zoom motor / hand grip would have to be removed in order to clear the built-in hand grip of the XL2. So you'd lose a lot of functionality right there. Given the current pricing, how much would you be willing to pay for that lens? __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

August 13th, 2004, 11:10 AM	#19
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	When you hear from IFP-L.A., Bill, please pass it on here. I'm also interested in what they think about it. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

August 13th, 2004, 03:51 PM	#23
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> It's great that the XL2 has a 12bit DSP It is. But is it 12 bits for each primary color or for the full RGB? __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

August 13th, 2004, 04:04 PM	#24
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Ignacio, I understand the scepticism - companies always tell mistruths about this sort of thing. BUT really would cannon have what would amount to an average of 4 bits per RGB? No F@*&#ing way they would - they couldn't be that cheap. If they do I'll eat my XM2 ;) Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

August 13th, 2004, 05:18 PM	#28
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	My current Sony does 14-bit processing. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

August 13th, 2004, 08:57 AM	#16
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	Not quite that bad. The CRT viewfinder is available. As is a manual lens. And in the next step up, Canon offers a 12x wide angle lens with optional doubler. Just make a 1/3" version of the lens available for the XL chassis.

August 13th, 2004, 10:47 AM	#18
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Really? That's a minor thing, but always a major irritant for me when I'm shooting with the 250. At the end of takes I like to flip on the bars and record a few seconds, and that's a pain when you have to go into the menu. From all I've read about the XL2, and heard, it should be a very cool camera for shooting 16:9, which I like to do. A friend of mine who works for IFP-L.A. saw one a few weeks ago when the Canon rep took it by their offices, and he was impressed. They're doing a workshop in about a month or so with it, so I'll get a report from somebody whose eyes I trust.

August 13th, 2004, 11:47 AM	#20
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	I though it was closer to $3k without the doubler. I was wrong. What I would like is a wider angle and maybe a shorter range in a lens that can use a follow focus. Something more or less similar to the DVX100A, but going even a little wider still (just under 4mm). When I can find what I am looking for--16:9, progressive scan (24 and 30 f/s), WA lens, significant electronic controls, and hopefully 1/2 CCD--I would expect to spend $8-10k. If I want a LCD monitor, a 7" Panasonic can be clipped on top. Or use a portable CRT. If everything is in order, I think I will rent one later this year with the Mini35. However in the camera that is purchased and sits around to be used ad hoc, the desired features are needed. The two Panasonics (DVX100A, DVC-200) are close, as the XL2 seems to be.

August 13th, 2004, 12:51 PM	#21
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	The DVC200 doesn't do progressive scan or 24fps. No other half inch camera does either. You're stuck with 1/3" or jump up to 2/3".

August 13th, 2004, 03:42 PM	#22
John Mercer Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Spain Posts: 73	"When I can find what I am looking for--16:9, progressive scan (24 and 30 f/s), WA lens, significant electronic controls, and hopefully 1/2 CCD--I would expect to spend $8-10k." Like Bill said. The next cheapest camera with these features than the XL2 (it has WA - the 3x and 'significant electronic controls', but no 1/2" CCD) is the Panasonic SDX900 DV50 camera - and you'll have to pay a lot more than $8-10k. It's great that the XL2 has a 12bit DSP, but it kind of stood to logical reason IMO.

August 13th, 2004, 04:16 PM	#25
John Mercer Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Spain Posts: 73	12 bits for each primary colour would be 36bit surely? This is really starting to be obsessive. It is a 12bit DSP that ends up producing an 8 bit 4:1:1 NTSC or 4:2:0 PAL processed DV25 signal. It is the same as the DVX100A. BTW the 2/3" chip Sony DSR 570 DVCAM only has a 10 bit DSP and nobody complains about that camera's image.

August 13th, 2004, 04:23 PM	#26
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Nobody complains about the 500/570 because it's not in the same market as the XL2. If it sold for the same price as the DVX100a, then people would complain about it.

August 13th, 2004, 04:43 PM	#27
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	The DSR3x0 and 5x0 came out when 10-bits was leading edge. New Panasonic and Ikegami cameras are 12-bit, and presumably the next generation of Sonys will be 12- or 14-bit.

August 14th, 2004, 08:15 PM	#29
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	I don't care if the XL2 is ONLY twelve bit and 720x480, I'm still going to buy one as long as they're still white. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

August 14th, 2004, 09:47 PM	#30
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : I don't care if the I'm still going to buy one as long as they're still white. -->>> Is white the school color?