after they work out the possible bugs will there be xl2s (like xl1 to xl1s)? at DVinfo.net

Yi Fong Yu · July 14th, 2004, 10:21 PM

i'm kinda thinking about that... i know Chris has posted a quote saying, this is the last SD cam but... if xl2 is a bit wee buggy then perhaps there'll be a xl2s? but maybe not cause xl1s is the bugfix/improvement of xl1 and xl2 is really just xl1, xl1s to the nth degree... so maybe this is TRULY the last prosumer SD cam from Canon after all.

Nathan Gifford · July 15th, 2004, 04:55 AM

If you read between the lines Canon has added more flexibility in this design than they had with the 1 or S models. I also suggest you read Chris' opinion piece on Canon design philosophy surrounding the XL2 and devices in general.

Chris Hurd · July 15th, 2004, 05:14 PM

The XL1S was not a bug fix. It was a complete re-design of the camera's electronic guts, and a greatly expanded menu system.

Bill Pryor · July 15th, 2004, 07:31 PM

You gotta love this--the thing isn't even on the market yet and here we are talking about an upgrade.

Chris Hurd · July 15th, 2004, 10:38 PM

A sign of the times, Bill. We have surpassed the "instant gratification" trend and are now heading into the "pre-gratification" era.

Yi Fong Yu · July 16th, 2004, 12:03 AM

oh don't worry fellas... i'm just thinking out loud =). i mean.. XL3, XL4, Xl5, Xl20? it goes on.

i wonder what canon's HD version will be... possibly XL3? who knows. just considering all the possibilities...

David Ziegelheim · July 17th, 2004, 09:39 PM

I think the 'next release' is because of the 'missing' features. 8-bit processing. Small effective CCD.

When Panasonic introduced the DVX100 with half its programming missing, the same speculation occured. In about 12 months from general availabilty, a new version was announced (Nov 17th, and told to distributors months earlier).

My guess is we will see the XL2S by next spring. The XL2 was probably rushed out because of market pressure.

Ken Tanaka · July 17th, 2004, 09:54 PM

"Incredible" is the only word that comes to my mind reading this thread.

Joe Carney · July 18th, 2004, 10:29 AM

funny, many who I've told about the new xl2 have mentioned the same thing. They all wondered if they should wait for the version with all the bugs fixed. You'd of thought they were buying a Chevy instead of a Canon.

Jim Giberti · July 18th, 2004, 12:08 PM

<<"Incredible" is the only word that comes to my mind reading this thread.>>

Exactly what I was thinking Ken. Here's a thought...get a camera, makes some movies, make some money...be here now.

Don Berube · July 18th, 2004, 12:59 PM

My thoughts exactly Jim and Ken. So many people sit there and say to themselves "Someday, there will be a camera that will allow me to make MY film, tell MY story"... They don't seem to realize that it is the person behind the camera that is inhibiting them from achieving the images they see in their head, not the camera. The fact is that the tools they need(ed) were available to them in some form or fashion all along.

- don

Chris Hurd · July 18th, 2004, 01:59 PM

<< The XL2 was probably rushed out because of market pressure >>

Two years is rushed out? Bursts of laughter are always fun, but now I have to wipe all this coffee off my monitor screen.

David Ziegelheim · July 18th, 2004, 03:00 PM

No, the question is, is their a camera where the convience of owning exceeds the expected obsolesnce of a camera which has half the features missing.

Which really makes a better 16:9: the DVX100 with anamorphic adapter or the XL2 with Century or Optex adapter? Or would you wait for an XL2S or DVX100B with both 16:9 CCDs and complete 12-bit or higher electronics, and rent in the meantime?

Making a movie, what percentage of the time do you spend in production?

Chris Hurd · July 18th, 2004, 04:02 PM

I'm sorry but that's not right. Obsolesence is immaterial. It's just like owning a car; if you must have the latest and greatest then you sell the old one and buy the new one. Or you keep it and continue to drive it even though it's six years old. It is strictly your own choice to make. The manufacturer has nothing to do with it.

The cameras discussed here -- XL, DVX -- should pay for themselves within the first few months of ownership. If it's not being used as a business tool, then it's strictly a luxury item. Either way, when a new model comes out it does not mean that yours stops working. Either you keep it and use it, or you transition out of it by selling. Nobody is "locked in" to a camera just because they've bought into it.

David Ziegelheim · July 18th, 2004, 04:40 PM

Cars are absolutely the same way (something I know a fair amount about). If you want a good car to keep and like for a while, or even just during a lease, you need to time your purchase when the model and features are right.

Getting an 'obsolete' car, or one who is a lackluster performer in its class is always a disappointing decision. Sometimes you wait a year until certain features are available, or a new model comes out.

Are you planning to buy an 6 year old design (such as the Lexus GS) months before a new and up todate version becomes available? Most buyers recognize the difference. Acura dealers can't give a way the '04 RL. The '05 is expected to be sold out all year. That GS is a laggard now, however Toyota expects the version to join the LS at the top of the heap. '04 MB SLK320s were a hard sell. '05 MB SLK350s are hard to get.

The same with camcorders. Yes, if you need a camcorder today, you need to pick among the available models. However, nearly everyone here already has a camcorder. The decision is whether this is a good time to upgrade.

These must have models are ones you can buy without reservation. Unfortunately, between 16:9, progressive scan, 12-bit electronics, and CCD size, no available camera has it all. Both the Panasonic and Canon are close. However, I for one, expected the Canon to be closer (larger effective chip, 12-bit electronics, better viewfinder).

And the XL2 is just a kinda competitive model when it 'coulda been a contender'. Even the champ. Maybe next year it will become one.

July 14th, 2004, 10:21 PM	#1
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	after they work out the possible bugs will there be xl2s (like xl1 to xl1s)? i'm kinda thinking about that... i know Chris has posted a quote saying, this is the last SD cam but... if xl2 is a bit wee buggy then perhaps there'll be a xl2s? but maybe not cause xl1s is the bugfix/improvement of xl1 and xl2 is really just xl1, xl1s to the nth degree... so maybe this is TRULY the last prosumer SD cam from Canon after all. __________________ bow wow wow

July 15th, 2004, 04:55 AM	#2
Nathan Gifford Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tickfaw, LA Posts: 1,217	If you read between the lines Canon has added more flexibility in this design than they had with the 1 or S models. I also suggest you read Chris' opinion piece on Canon design philosophy surrounding the XL2 and devices in general. __________________ Nathan Gifford Southern Cyclist Magazine & Productions For quick answers try our Search! To see me and Rob Lohman click here

July 15th, 2004, 05:14 PM	#3
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	The XL1S was not a bug fix. It was a complete re-design of the camera's electronic guts, and a greatly expanded menu system. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 15th, 2004, 10:38 PM	#5
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	A sign of the times, Bill. We have surpassed the "instant gratification" trend and are now heading into the "pre-gratification" era. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 16th, 2004, 12:03 AM	#6
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	oh don't worry fellas... i'm just thinking out loud =). i mean.. XL3, XL4, Xl5, Xl20? it goes on. i wonder what canon's HD version will be... possibly XL3? who knows. just considering all the possibilities... __________________ bow wow wow

July 15th, 2004, 07:31 PM	#4
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	You gotta love this--the thing isn't even on the market yet and here we are talking about an upgrade.

July 17th, 2004, 09:39 PM	#7
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	I think the 'next release' is because of the 'missing' features. 8-bit processing. Small effective CCD. When Panasonic introduced the DVX100 with half its programming missing, the same speculation occured. In about 12 months from general availabilty, a new version was announced (Nov 17th, and told to distributors months earlier). My guess is we will see the XL2S by next spring. The XL2 was probably rushed out because of market pressure.

July 17th, 2004, 09:54 PM	#8
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	"Incredible" is the only word that comes to my mind reading this thread. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

July 18th, 2004, 10:29 AM	#9
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	funny, many who I've told about the new xl2 have mentioned the same thing. They all wondered if they should wait for the version with all the bugs fixed. You'd of thought they were buying a Chevy instead of a Canon.

July 18th, 2004, 12:08 PM	#10
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	<<"Incredible" is the only word that comes to my mind reading this thread.>> Exactly what I was thinking Ken. Here's a thought...get a camera, makes some movies, make some money...be here now.

July 18th, 2004, 12:59 PM	#11
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	My thoughts exactly Jim and Ken. So many people sit there and say to themselves "Someday, there will be a camera that will allow me to make MY film, tell MY story"... They don't seem to realize that it is the person behind the camera that is inhibiting them from achieving the images they see in their head, not the camera. The fact is that the tools they need(ed) were available to them in some form or fashion all along. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

July 18th, 2004, 01:59 PM	#12
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	<< The XL2 was probably rushed out because of market pressure >> Two years is rushed out? Bursts of laughter are always fun, but now I have to wipe all this coffee off my monitor screen. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 18th, 2004, 03:00 PM	#13
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	No, the question is, is their a camera where the convience of owning exceeds the expected obsolesnce of a camera which has half the features missing. Which really makes a better 16:9: the DVX100 with anamorphic adapter or the XL2 with Century or Optex adapter? Or would you wait for an XL2S or DVX100B with both 16:9 CCDs and complete 12-bit or higher electronics, and rent in the meantime? Making a movie, what percentage of the time do you spend in production?

July 18th, 2004, 04:02 PM	#14
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	I'm sorry but that's not right. Obsolesence is immaterial. It's just like owning a car; if you must have the latest and greatest then you sell the old one and buy the new one. Or you keep it and continue to drive it even though it's six years old. It is strictly your own choice to make. The manufacturer has nothing to do with it. The cameras discussed here -- XL, DVX -- should pay for themselves within the first few months of ownership. If it's not being used as a business tool, then it's strictly a luxury item. Either way, when a new model comes out it does not mean that yours stops working. Either you keep it and use it, or you transition out of it by selling. Nobody is "locked in" to a camera just because they've bought into it. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 18th, 2004, 04:40 PM	#15
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	Cars are absolutely the same way (something I know a fair amount about). If you want a good car to keep and like for a while, or even just during a lease, you need to time your purchase when the model and features are right. Getting an 'obsolete' car, or one who is a lackluster performer in its class is always a disappointing decision. Sometimes you wait a year until certain features are available, or a new model comes out. Are you planning to buy an 6 year old design (such as the Lexus GS) months before a new and up todate version becomes available? Most buyers recognize the difference. Acura dealers can't give a way the '04 RL. The '05 is expected to be sold out all year. That GS is a laggard now, however Toyota expects the version to join the LS at the top of the heap. '04 MB SLK320s were a hard sell. '05 MB SLK350s are hard to get. The same with camcorders. Yes, if you need a camcorder today, you need to pick among the available models. However, nearly everyone here already has a camcorder. The decision is whether this is a good time to upgrade. These must have models are ones you can buy without reservation. Unfortunately, between 16:9, progressive scan, 12-bit electronics, and CCD size, no available camera has it all. Both the Panasonic and Canon are close. However, I for one, expected the Canon to be closer (larger effective chip, 12-bit electronics, better viewfinder). And the XL2 is just a kinda competitive model when it 'coulda been a contender'. Even the champ. Maybe next year it will become one.