after they work out the possible bugs will there be xl2s (like xl1 to xl1s)?

Jim Giberti · July 19th, 2004, 03:37 PM

<<Jim's comments put things in perspective a lot>>

Remember Aaron, I'm just giving my perspective on this little debate. There are good points all around, which is why I say, and I'm echoing a sentiment that you'll hear from so many of the good people here from Chris to Ken to Charles...you can do really great work with either camera. I am totally impressed with work I've seen on both...it's all good.

David Ziegelheim · July 19th, 2004, 03:56 PM

Actually, I asked about the SDK. And what I heard wasn't what I wanted to here there either. Basically, you can access a feature that is already there, however you can't create a new one.

I wanted to create software to:

-Hear either channel 1 or channel 2 as a mono channel: NO

-Create a spot zebra: NO

-Create multiple points in a rack focus: MAYBE

I think I also asked about some other things, the answer was virtually always no.

Again, disappointing. However, since I wasn't expecting an SDK, not too disappointing.

Aaron Koolen · July 19th, 2004, 05:06 PM

Well, thought it'd be too good to be true. Multiple focus points are handy, but will that be controllable via, say USB? So you can adjust them easily on the fly from scene to scene?

I guess when I heard SDK I was thinking of a more complete API. Rereading their press release, you're right. They only mention using the features that are already there.

None the less, it'll be good for the community cause there will be thousands of people writing "film looks" and all that guff for sharing with each other.

Aaron

Chris Hurd · July 19th, 2004, 06:25 PM

David,

I'm not sure who you talked to in the booth, but you were either misinformed, misunderstood what you were told, or are misremembering now. Nobody at Canon USA knows what the SDK is fully capable of. The SDK is a product of Canon Inc. in Japan and only the U.S. product manager, and none of the people working the trade show, have a clear indication of what it can or cannot do. Nobody, not you nor me nor anyone on this forum, will have a clear indication of what it can or cannot do until developers have it and start to work with it. So once again, I will ask you to please refrain from speaking about that which you do not know. If you have decided that this camera is not for you, then that's certainly your business; we do have other camera forums here so you will want to seriously consider moving on from this one along to something else (we try to cover it all here at DV Info. It's becoming a bit of a hassle to follow your posts and clear up the misconceptions you're creating. Please do me a favor and refrain from doing so any fruther. Many thanks and much appreciation to you in advance,

David Ziegelheim · July 19th, 2004, 07:14 PM

Actually, I don't think I am creating any misconceptions. However, you don't want me to post here, that's fine.

The information on the SDK was from two people after one of the panel discussions. The first asked the second. The second was rather ademant about it, since I was trying to figure out how to make it work, not why it wouldn't work.

The Canon booth was my first stop at the show (I actually think I was the first person there when it opened on Wednesday). It was also one of my last stops on Friday. I spent a lot of time verifying and trying and re-trying to make sure I got it right.

Robert Mann Z. · July 19th, 2004, 10:16 PM

chris i will say this, not everyone at the canon booth knew what they were talking about...

i spoke to a rep there he told me that canon got rid of the push auto focus button, at first i thought he was kidding, maybe doing an ali gee move on me, he said it was the one feature on the cam that canon should not have dropped, i later explained to him that its still there but its not a push button, he was shocked...as was i

lets just say not everyone at the canon booth was on equal level

Yi Fong Yu · July 19th, 2004, 10:21 PM

shouldn't SDK by its very definition mean the limitless possibilities (save imagination) of software creation to do anything?

Luis Caffesse · July 19th, 2004, 10:34 PM

"shouldn't SDK by its very definition mean the limitless possibilities (save imagination) of software creation to do anything?"

Actually, according to the dictionary:

<jargon, product> (SDK, or "Software Development Kit")
Software provided by a software vendor to allow their products
to be used with those of other software vendors.

:)

Seriously... none of us knows the limitations or options that will come with this SDK.
Guessing isn't going to answer any questions.
We'll know when we know.

-Luis

Don Berube · July 20th, 2004, 08:27 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Robert Mann Z. : chris i will say this, not everyone at the canon booth knew what they were talking about...

i spoke to a rep there he told me that canon got rid of the push auto focus button, at first i thought he was kidding, maybe doing an ali gee move on me, he said it was the one feature on the cam that canon should not have dropped, i later explained to him that its still there but its not a push button, he was shocked...as was i

lets just say not everyone at the canon booth was on equal level -->>>

Hey Robert, you should have said hello, I would have been interested in meeting you and hearing what you had to say about the camera.

Bear in mind that not everyone in the booth is a DP or camera operator or does exactly the same thing. Each of us brings our own unique experience, some are actors/ actresses who work in NYC and Hollywood, some of us are experienced filmmakers, directors, DP's and producers with real product out there. As a whole, we have an ecclectic mix of working professionals who are able to speak about the product from their own user experience, rather than just being a hired booth babe or sales rep.

Consider that all of us at the show had at most 2-3 days total experience with the new XL2 and not all of that was hands-on. Combine to that a long schedule of hours setting up and manning a Press Event at the Westin, then immediately striking that setup, moving it all to the Javitz Center and again setting up the Canon booth and the breakout session room until very late in the evening. Add to this having to deal with the union labor telling you that you cannot setup anything which uses cables or electricity, which ultimately means that everything takes longer. Then we all had to be there the next morning, rise and shine, to answer an endless stream of thousands of attendees for three days straight with hardly any break at all. And there are also many people asking many questions about the Opturas and Eluras and projectors at the same time that there are people grilling us about every nuance of the XL2. Not that we are complaining at all, it's a great deal of fun and we love it. But it can be a little overwhelming the first couple days of a show when the traffic is non-stop and you are working on very little sleep, feeling kinda hungry and the need to get caffeinated, often having to stand on a concrete floor for hours on end,,, yet we all bear a smile and press on until the end of the day because we all love being part of a friendly and knowledgeable team. It is inevitable that anyone will make a slip-up or two before the end of the show.

- don

Robert Mann Z. · July 20th, 2004, 08:32 AM

Don, i think i did see you, everyone who i knew by name, or whose name looked familiar was busy...

i can just imagine how david might have been mis-informed...i was really hoping to snag one of those polos...but now i can see we are off topic again

David Ziegelheim · July 20th, 2004, 08:46 AM

Not everyone had just received the camera. The panel discussions included footage and how that footage was taken.

And no one is saying it is a terrible camera. For example, I would definitely get it over a PD170 or anything from JVC.

We are, I am, just looking for something that works in the 24p/16:9 environment that I would like to work in (95+% of my current stuff is 60i/16:9). And there is a player already established there that sets the reference point.

Maybe Canon should offer a package with the CRT viewfinder, 16x manual lens, Optek or Century WA adapter, and maybe an optional underscanned LCD panel.

Chris Hurd · July 20th, 2004, 08:51 AM

<< Maybe Canon should offer a package with the CRT viewfinder, 16x manual lens, Optek or Century WA adapter, and maybe an optional underscanned LCD panel. >>

Authorized Canon dealers will indeed offer custom XL2 packages, but this should have been understood in the first place.

Don Berube · July 20th, 2004, 09:11 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by David Ziegelheim : Not everyone had just received the camera. The panel discussions included footage and how that footage was taken. -->>>

Hey David,

No offense, but you are taking things much too literally. I was referring to the stringers who were hired to demonstrate the cameras in the booth. I was not referring to the full-time Canon Tech staff and film crew members who were involved with shooting the demo footage and who participated in the panel discussion.

It's definitely a given that the XL2 will shine with the B&W viewfinder and 16X Manual/ Servo lens attached.

- don

David Ziegelheim · July 20th, 2004, 09:42 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd :
Authorized Canon dealers will indeed offer custom XL2 packages, but this should have been understood in the first place. -->>>

Dealers get an incentive from Canon to put together customer packages?

As part of a Canon package, the 16x lens adds $850-950 to the price. Standalone, it adds $1300. The viewfinder is over $1500. The standard one is $300-350, and the camera is not available without it.

Assembling an XL1S with body ($2750), manual lens ($1340), and viewfinder ($1550) costs $5640. The XL1S with the standard lens and viewfinder is $3600.

If it were a manufacturer's assembled package it would probably have been only $1000 more or less, versus over $2000 more.

This I can't confirm, however at the show I was told MSRP on the XL2 with lens is $4995 and without lens is $3995. That would make the difference about the same (of a kit vs. custom kit), however about $750 more the the XL1S at current prices.

Chris Hurd · July 20th, 2004, 10:25 AM

I'm not sure what your point is, but the whole idea behind the XL series camcorders is their modularity. You pick and choose the components you want and build the camera package you need. If the cost is an issue, then I urge you to set your sights more realistically on a lower priced camcorder. Hope this helps,

July 19th, 2004, 05:06 PM	#33
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Well, thought it'd be too good to be true. Multiple focus points are handy, but will that be controllable via, say USB? So you can adjust them easily on the fly from scene to scene? I guess when I heard SDK I was thinking of a more complete API. Rereading their press release, you're right. They only mention using the features that are already there. None the less, it'll be good for the community cause there will be thousands of people writing "film looks" and all that guff for sharing with each other. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

July 19th, 2004, 06:25 PM	#34
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	David, I'm not sure who you talked to in the booth, but you were either misinformed, misunderstood what you were told, or are misremembering now. Nobody at Canon USA knows what the SDK is fully capable of. The SDK is a product of Canon Inc. in Japan and only the U.S. product manager, and none of the people working the trade show, have a clear indication of what it can or cannot do. Nobody, not you nor me nor anyone on this forum, will have a clear indication of what it can or cannot do until developers have it and start to work with it. So once again, I will ask you to please refrain from speaking about that which you do not know. If you have decided that this camera is not for you, then that's certainly your business; we do have other camera forums here so you will want to seriously consider moving on from this one along to something else (we try to cover it all here at DV Info. It's becoming a bit of a hassle to follow your posts and clear up the misconceptions you're creating. Please do me a favor and refrain from doing so any fruther. Many thanks and much appreciation to you in advance, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 19th, 2004, 10:21 PM	#37
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	shouldn't SDK by its very definition mean the limitless possibilities (save imagination) of software creation to do anything? __________________ bow wow wow

July 20th, 2004, 08:27 AM	#39
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	<<<-- Originally posted by Robert Mann Z. : chris i will say this, not everyone at the canon booth knew what they were talking about... i spoke to a rep there he told me that canon got rid of the push auto focus button, at first i thought he was kidding, maybe doing an ali gee move on me, he said it was the one feature on the cam that canon should not have dropped, i later explained to him that its still there but its not a push button, he was shocked...as was i lets just say not everyone at the canon booth was on equal level -->>> Hey Robert, you should have said hello, I would have been interested in meeting you and hearing what you had to say about the camera. Bear in mind that not everyone in the booth is a DP or camera operator or does exactly the same thing. Each of us brings our own unique experience, some are actors/ actresses who work in NYC and Hollywood, some of us are experienced filmmakers, directors, DP's and producers with real product out there. As a whole, we have an ecclectic mix of working professionals who are able to speak about the product from their own user experience, rather than just being a hired booth babe or sales rep. Consider that all of us at the show had at most 2-3 days total experience with the new XL2 and not all of that was hands-on. Combine to that a long schedule of hours setting up and manning a Press Event at the Westin, then immediately striking that setup, moving it all to the Javitz Center and again setting up the Canon booth and the breakout session room until very late in the evening. Add to this having to deal with the union labor telling you that you cannot setup anything which uses cables or electricity, which ultimately means that everything takes longer. Then we all had to be there the next morning, rise and shine, to answer an endless stream of thousands of attendees for three days straight with hardly any break at all. And there are also many people asking many questions about the Opturas and Eluras and projectors at the same time that there are people grilling us about every nuance of the XL2. Not that we are complaining at all, it's a great deal of fun and we love it. But it can be a little overwhelming the first couple days of a show when the traffic is non-stop and you are working on very little sleep, feeling kinda hungry and the need to get caffeinated, often having to stand on a concrete floor for hours on end,,, yet we all bear a smile and press on until the end of the day because we all love being part of a friendly and knowledgeable team. It is inevitable that anyone will make a slip-up or two before the end of the show. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

July 20th, 2004, 08:51 AM	#42
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	<< Maybe Canon should offer a package with the CRT viewfinder, 16x manual lens, Optek or Century WA adapter, and maybe an optional underscanned LCD panel. >> Authorized Canon dealers will indeed offer custom XL2 packages, but this should have been understood in the first place. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 19th, 2004, 03:37 PM	#31
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	<<Jim's comments put things in perspective a lot>> Remember Aaron, I'm just giving my perspective on this little debate. There are good points all around, which is why I say, and I'm echoing a sentiment that you'll hear from so many of the good people here from Chris to Ken to Charles...you can do really great work with either camera. I am totally impressed with work I've seen on both...it's all good.

July 19th, 2004, 03:56 PM	#32
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	Actually, I asked about the SDK. And what I heard wasn't what I wanted to here there either. Basically, you can access a feature that is already there, however you can't create a new one. I wanted to create software to: -Hear either channel 1 or channel 2 as a mono channel: NO -Create a spot zebra: NO -Create multiple points in a rack focus: MAYBE I think I also asked about some other things, the answer was virtually always no. Again, disappointing. However, since I wasn't expecting an SDK, not too disappointing.

July 19th, 2004, 07:14 PM	#35
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	Actually, I don't think I am creating any misconceptions. However, you don't want me to post here, that's fine. The information on the SDK was from two people after one of the panel discussions. The first asked the second. The second was rather ademant about it, since I was trying to figure out how to make it work, not why it wouldn't work. The Canon booth was my first stop at the show (I actually think I was the first person there when it opened on Wednesday). It was also one of my last stops on Friday. I spent a lot of time verifying and trying and re-trying to make sure I got it right.

July 19th, 2004, 10:16 PM	#36
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	chris i will say this, not everyone at the canon booth knew what they were talking about... i spoke to a rep there he told me that canon got rid of the push auto focus button, at first i thought he was kidding, maybe doing an ali gee move on me, he said it was the one feature on the cam that canon should not have dropped, i later explained to him that its still there but its not a push button, he was shocked...as was i lets just say not everyone at the canon booth was on equal level

July 19th, 2004, 10:34 PM	#38
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	"shouldn't SDK by its very definition mean the limitless possibilities (save imagination) of software creation to do anything?" Actually, according to the dictionary: <jargon, product> (SDK, or "Software Development Kit") Software provided by a software vendor to allow their products to be used with those of other software vendors. :) Seriously... none of us knows the limitations or options that will come with this SDK. Guessing isn't going to answer any questions. We'll know when we know. -Luis

July 20th, 2004, 08:32 AM	#40
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	Don, i think i did see you, everyone who i knew by name, or whose name looked familiar was busy... i can just imagine how david might have been mis-informed...i was really hoping to snag one of those polos...but now i can see we are off topic again

July 20th, 2004, 08:46 AM	#41
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	Not everyone had just received the camera. The panel discussions included footage and how that footage was taken. And no one is saying it is a terrible camera. For example, I would definitely get it over a PD170 or anything from JVC. We are, I am, just looking for something that works in the 24p/16:9 environment that I would like to work in (95+% of my current stuff is 60i/16:9). And there is a player already established there that sets the reference point. Maybe Canon should offer a package with the CRT viewfinder, 16x manual lens, Optek or Century WA adapter, and maybe an optional underscanned LCD panel.

July 20th, 2004, 09:11 AM	#43
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	<<<-- Originally posted by David Ziegelheim : Not everyone had just received the camera. The panel discussions included footage and how that footage was taken. -->>> Hey David, No offense, but you are taking things much too literally. I was referring to the stringers who were hired to demonstrate the cameras in the booth. I was not referring to the full-time Canon Tech staff and film crew members who were involved with shooting the demo footage and who participated in the panel discussion. It's definitely a given that the XL2 will shine with the B&W viewfinder and 16X Manual/ Servo lens attached. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

July 20th, 2004, 09:42 AM	#44
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Authorized Canon dealers will indeed offer custom XL2 packages, but this should have been understood in the first place. -->>> Dealers get an incentive from Canon to put together customer packages? As part of a Canon package, the 16x lens adds $850-950 to the price. Standalone, it adds $1300. The viewfinder is over $1500. The standard one is $300-350, and the camera is not available without it. Assembling an XL1S with body ($2750), manual lens ($1340), and viewfinder ($1550) costs $5640. The XL1S with the standard lens and viewfinder is $3600. If it were a manufacturer's assembled package it would probably have been only $1000 more or less, versus over $2000 more. This I can't confirm, however at the show I was told MSRP on the XL2 with lens is $4995 and without lens is $3995. That would make the difference about the same (of a kit vs. custom kit), however about $750 more the the XL1S at current prices.

July 20th, 2004, 10:25 AM	#45
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	I'm not sure what your point is, but the whole idea behind the XL series camcorders is their modularity. You pick and choose the components you want and build the camera package you need. If the cost is an issue, then I urge you to set your sights more realistically on a lower priced camcorder. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!