picture noise in XL2

Eric Shepherd · October 4th, 2007, 12:05 PM

Thanks for the info Greg.

So then would I be wise or unwise to switch my camera to 24Pa for the remainder of the movie? It's about half shot now, and the footage for each individual scene is wrapped, so there wouldn't be a mixture of footage types per scene, but it's being shot out of sequence, so the scenes would go 24P, 24P, 24Pa, 24P, 24Pa as an example. Would this be noticeable? I want the best image quality possible, but I don't want to mess up the look of the movie by switching formats from scene to scene.

I'll check with Canon, but I'm not sure where I should call. Do you have any suggestions for better results?

Thanks :)

Michael Nistler · October 5th, 2007, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Shepherd

Thanks for the info Greg.

I'll check with Canon, but I'm not sure where I should call. Do you have any suggestions for better results?

Thanks :)

Hi Eric,

Sounds as though you've got a fairly good handle on the XL-2, however you might want to tweak a few more Presets - crank down the SETUP LEVEL and MASTER PEDISTAL (in addition to BLACK = PRESS). You'll find this discussed midway through dvCreator's excellent Canon XL-2 Feature Tour:
http://dvcreators.net/media/demos/xl...aturetour.html

If this doesn't help, I'm also befuddled. Incidentally, each of these controls should visually make a significant visual change as you tweak them so if you don't see any differences, you know that's the problem to have Canon repair.

Good luck, Michael

Eric Shepherd · October 5th, 2007, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Nistler

Hi Eric,

Sounds as though you've got a fairly good handle on the XL-2, however you might want to tweak a few more Presets - crank down the SETUP LEVEL and MASTER PEDISTAL (in addition to BLACK = PRESS). You'll find this discussed midway through dvCreator's excellent Canon XL-2 Feature Tour:
http://dvcreators.net/media/demos/xl...aturetour.html

If this doesn't help, I'm also befuddled. Incidentally, each of these controls should visually make a significant visual change as you tweak them so if you don't see any differences, you know that's the problem to have Canon repair.

Good luck, Michael

A snowy Christmas indeed! :) I'll try adjusting those again today. The problem I'm seeing isn't *bad* snow, it's just a slight bit of constant noise.

I was playing with the camera last night and noticed a slight 'shake' to it when I moved it around (if I shook the camera a little by the handle). I was working on various ways to get a steady walking shot, including holding it by the carrying handle with the tripod hanging straight below it, folded up. Works alright, but I can't hold 16+ lbs with a bent elbow for more than a few mins before my shoulders start to burn! The shake seemed to be a *slight* wobble in the joint between the lens and camera. I don't know if there's normally a very slight wobble there on these cameras? It was one of those things that's just enough to feel it, not a visible difference in the movement between both halves.

I've tried adjusting them in the past. But I'll give it a shot again. I was thinking but haven't tested it yet, should there be *any* picture noise with the iris set to closed? I didn't know if using no presets, and a closed iris, if that would be a good way to compare results between cameras?

My only problem with sending it out is that suddenly, over the past 3 days or so, I've gotten all sorts of days booked to shoot things over the next week or so, and then the movie I'm working on shoots every Sunday if the people needed for the scenes are all available. But then if there's a problem, even a small one, I'd rather get it fixed than have it suddenly become a big problem in the middle of a shoot and look like an idiot. Not that I haven't looked like an idiot in the past, mind you, I'm just saying, if there's one such occasion I can avoid, I'd like to. ;)

And yup, I'm quite familiar with the DV Creators.net tour video. It's about 90% of what made me get the XL2 in March of this year. Even though Josh won't give me a real response on how they did the focus and zoom presets and activated them without shaking the camera, even while zoomed way in! :)

Ash Greyson · October 5th, 2007, 10:02 AM

I cant tell much from the wmv's you posted. Blue, on any DV camera, will always have sharpness noise. Red, will always have chroma noise. What are your settings? The XL2 defaults to maximum detail across all ranges, this can make things a little milky and make it seem like there is more noise than there really is.

Crushing the blacks, keeping the white balance from being too warm, turning down the setup level and master ped, etc. can eliminate noise almost altogether. Turning the coring down can create noise, up can mask it. I can get super clean images with no detectable noise at +6dB gain pretty easy and even at +12dB gain it can look fairly clean.

ash =o)

Eric Shepherd · October 5th, 2007, 01:17 PM

Hi Ash,

Thanks for the info! :) I was hoping you might see my post, being the king of the custom preset and all.. ;)

I'll try your advice out tonight in some tests here.

Tomorrow night I have 2 shoots at a house party. One is for a new product and I'll be getting testimonials from the guests.. I'm hoping to light the shot with 2 tiki torches and fill in with some gelled light from my Omni and Pro lights. Maybe gel the Rifa 44 somehow if needed. The product is a margarita maker, so it's a backyard party by a pool and I just want a kind of hawaiian/island sort of look. Just by a grey wall stucco wall with some scenery and texture added. Dark but able to see the faces nicely, so definitely a 'lower light' situation.

If I close the iris and don't use a custom preset, what should i expect to see? Solid black with no noise, or something else? If a couple people here could try that very simple experiment, I think that might tell me if there's an electrical problem in my camera or not.

So am I better off using more gain than boosting various levels in the custom preset, if I'm still lacking light?

And a (possibly related) question.. I have a Soft/FX 3 and a UV filter. I put the UV on the outside and Soft/FX 3 on the inside. Could this combo be causing any ill/adverse/related effects/problems with my image quality? I just want to protect the Soft/FX so I keep the UV on there, but it was probably a $15 or $20 UV (it came with the camera when I got it used). It says 'Digital Concepts' 'Japan Optics' 'China' on it.

I would think shooting with no custom presets on and -3dB gain, white balancing and manual everything, light meter reading dead center, that I should have a fairly usable image without noise, but maybe I'm expecting too much for $3k? ;) The noise is more like a film grain than say a poorly tuned tv antenna noise would be. I just don't like it, because I never see that on TV programs, etc. :)

Eric Shepherd · October 8th, 2007, 04:59 PM

I didn't get any replies on the post above.. Anyway, the weekend shoots went pretty well. I lowered the setup and master, raised the coring, crushed the blacks, the color was on full saturation (I started with the Amelie preset). I set the colors back to center though. Still a bit noisy though.

This clip (not mine) has exactly the noise my camera has. Is this normal or what?
http://www.borisfx.com/images/optical_stabilizer.mov

Thanks :)
Eric

Seun Osewa · October 13th, 2007, 03:55 AM

Neat Video ($49) can remove any form of noise. For best results, set the temporal filter to use the maximum number of frames (currently 5) and disable the spatial filter. The temporal filter is motion adaptive; it's almost perfect!

A smal amount of DV noise is normal; if you watch digital cable footage closely you'll notice a lot of that. But the noise is exaggerated on laptop monitors due to the dithering, so why not try viewing your footage on a CRT monitor or TV?

Eric Shepherd · October 13th, 2007, 11:33 AM

Thanks Seun, I may try that one.

I do see the noise from my videos on my 20" CRT tv. It's never really 'bad', but it's there whenever I look for it. I don't see it in television broadcasts, but some of that may be removed by the MPEG2 compression from our digital cable, I'm not sure.

I tried the coring and setup and black level settings, but I'm still getting the noisy image. It's like they didn't really have any change at all.

Did anyone see the link I posted from BorisFX? The noise is exactly like that one.

Thanks,
Eric

Ash Greyson · October 14th, 2007, 11:43 AM

The Amelie preset is highly saturated, this will cause some chroma noise. On the Boris clip, you are seeing noise from the saturated blue channel, which on video is overly sharp. You can combat this by turning down the sharpness and turning up the coring. For what it is worth, this kind of noise is much worse on the DVX and even HVX.

ash =o)

Eric Shepherd · October 14th, 2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

The Amelie preset is highly saturated, this will cause some chroma noise. On the Boris clip, you are seeing noise from the saturated blue channel, which on video is overly sharp. You can combat this by turning down the sharpness and turning up the coring. For what it is worth, this kind of noise is much worse on the DVX and even HVX.

ash =o)

Hmm, okay, I set my coring on max, sharpness I think on min, black on min, setup and master on max, and saturation on max. So I guess it's kinda self defeating in a way.

Should/would there be noise with the iris fully closed? I haven't checked that yet, but I think it would be a good way to see if there was a problem, if I have noise and no one else does. I'm still not sure my camera has a problem per se', I just want the best results I can get. It'd be nice not to need more than 3 presets to do so. Maybe that's asking too much? :)

Eric

October 4th, 2007, 12:05 PM	#16
Eric Shepherd Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 404	Thanks for the info Greg. So then would I be wise or unwise to switch my camera to 24Pa for the remainder of the movie? It's about half shot now, and the footage for each individual scene is wrapped, so there wouldn't be a mixture of footage types per scene, but it's being shot out of sequence, so the scenes would go 24P, 24P, 24Pa, 24P, 24Pa as an example. Would this be noticeable? I want the best image quality possible, but I don't want to mess up the look of the movie by switching formats from scene to scene. I'll check with Canon, but I'm not sure where I should call. Do you have any suggestions for better results? Thanks :)

October 5th, 2007, 10:02 AM	#19
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	I cant tell much from the wmv's you posted. Blue, on any DV camera, will always have sharpness noise. Red, will always have chroma noise. What are your settings? The XL2 defaults to maximum detail across all ranges, this can make things a little milky and make it seem like there is more noise than there really is. Crushing the blacks, keeping the white balance from being too warm, turning down the setup level and master ped, etc. can eliminate noise almost altogether. Turning the coring down can create noise, up can mask it. I can get super clean images with no detectable noise at +6dB gain pretty easy and even at +12dB gain it can look fairly clean. ash =o)

October 5th, 2007, 01:17 PM	#20
Eric Shepherd Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 404	Hi Ash, Thanks for the info! :) I was hoping you might see my post, being the king of the custom preset and all.. ;) I'll try your advice out tonight in some tests here. Tomorrow night I have 2 shoots at a house party. One is for a new product and I'll be getting testimonials from the guests.. I'm hoping to light the shot with 2 tiki torches and fill in with some gelled light from my Omni and Pro lights. Maybe gel the Rifa 44 somehow if needed. The product is a margarita maker, so it's a backyard party by a pool and I just want a kind of hawaiian/island sort of look. Just by a grey wall stucco wall with some scenery and texture added. Dark but able to see the faces nicely, so definitely a 'lower light' situation. If I close the iris and don't use a custom preset, what should i expect to see? Solid black with no noise, or something else? If a couple people here could try that very simple experiment, I think that might tell me if there's an electrical problem in my camera or not. So am I better off using more gain than boosting various levels in the custom preset, if I'm still lacking light? And a (possibly related) question.. I have a Soft/FX 3 and a UV filter. I put the UV on the outside and Soft/FX 3 on the inside. Could this combo be causing any ill/adverse/related effects/problems with my image quality? I just want to protect the Soft/FX so I keep the UV on there, but it was probably a $15 or $20 UV (it came with the camera when I got it used). It says 'Digital Concepts' 'Japan Optics' 'China' on it. I would think shooting with no custom presets on and -3dB gain, white balancing and manual everything, light meter reading dead center, that I should have a fairly usable image without noise, but maybe I'm expecting too much for $3k? ;) The noise is more like a film grain than say a poorly tuned tv antenna noise would be. I just don't like it, because I never see that on TV programs, etc. :)

October 8th, 2007, 04:59 PM	#21
Eric Shepherd Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 404	I didn't get any replies on the post above.. Anyway, the weekend shoots went pretty well. I lowered the setup and master, raised the coring, crushed the blacks, the color was on full saturation (I started with the Amelie preset). I set the colors back to center though. Still a bit noisy though. This clip (not mine) has exactly the noise my camera has. Is this normal or what? http://www.borisfx.com/images/optical_stabilizer.mov Thanks :) Eric

October 13th, 2007, 03:55 AM	#22
Seun Osewa Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: West Africa Posts: 255	Neat Video ($49) can remove any form of noise. For best results, set the temporal filter to use the maximum number of frames (currently 5) and disable the spatial filter. The temporal filter is motion adaptive; it's almost perfect! A smal amount of DV noise is normal; if you watch digital cable footage closely you'll notice a lot of that. But the noise is exaggerated on laptop monitors due to the dithering, so why not try viewing your footage on a CRT monitor or TV?

October 13th, 2007, 11:33 AM	#23
Eric Shepherd Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 404	Thanks Seun, I may try that one. I do see the noise from my videos on my 20" CRT tv. It's never really 'bad', but it's there whenever I look for it. I don't see it in television broadcasts, but some of that may be removed by the MPEG2 compression from our digital cable, I'm not sure. I tried the coring and setup and black level settings, but I'm still getting the noisy image. It's like they didn't really have any change at all. Did anyone see the link I posted from BorisFX? The noise is exactly like that one. Thanks, Eric

October 14th, 2007, 11:43 AM	#24
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	The Amelie preset is highly saturated, this will cause some chroma noise. On the Boris clip, you are seeing noise from the saturated blue channel, which on video is overly sharp. You can combat this by turning down the sharpness and turning up the coring. For what it is worth, this kind of noise is much worse on the DVX and even HVX. ash =o)