Capturing HDV and downconverting

Wade Hanchey · July 9th, 2007, 05:14 AM

Thanks David.

Jim Bucciferro · July 9th, 2007, 05:27 AM

So I captured some HD footage and SD footage to compare.
I was able to capture using HDVSplit - it created .m2t files that my editor (Avid Liquid 7.2) could read. With these files the editor seemed to work better - playback was still choppy but not as bad as with the MPEG2 files that Liquid created. So, capturing HDV for me seems to be doable.

I then moved both the HD and SD clips to an SD timeline and rendered out .avis, and encoded with CCE Basic at 8MBPS. I had to resize the HD clips to fit the SD frame so I lost some resolution.

The HD looked very nice converted to SD. Compared to the SD footage the HD seemed cleaner - maybe a little smoother than the SD footage which seemed sharper but seemed to have more noise.

I used the default presets.

All in all I am impressed with this camera. Once I get into the custom presets it should help.

Thanks for your help.
Jim

Glyn Wainwright · July 10th, 2007, 07:55 AM

Thanks Ivan for the useful tute link.
Just looking at converting from Ulead MSP7 to Premiere Pro 2
Quite a learning curve, but MSP7 doesn't handle HDV and XH A1
although I did some SD work already shot on A1.

Intend to shoot HDV for future proofing but most clients need SD versions

Jim Bucciferro · July 10th, 2007, 01:03 PM

I bought the VASST video Inside the Canon XH-A1. This is a great video for showing the camera functionality - I've learned a lot already and will continuously reference it until I get a firm grasp of the camera.

In the HDV section on editing Douglas talks about the HDI or HD intermediary format. It supposed to help with editing the HDV footage and since my pc is not very good for HDV maybe this will help.

Does anyone use this format and if so which one?

Thanks
Jim

Daniel Raebiger · July 18th, 2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk Bouwen

I've got a PAL A1. One of the issues - there's a thread about in DVI - is that a blinking black line appears on top of the image during downconvert. I've tested myself 2 A1's, they both had it. And others also experienced the same issue, it even exists in the HV10. Discussions with Canon about this don't lead to any result.

Any news on this error? I've just got my PAL XH-A1 and was shocked that those features i learned to love from the FX1 are completely worthless. There seems to be no conversion during the shoot (for live recording to a laptop etc.) and the flickering black bar makes the camera-converted footage unuseable. It also seems that the converted material is way worse than a PC based HD->SD conversion.

I'm producing a lot for web-based magazines which want me to have the material available in HDV for later use, the current clips in SD resolution as it doesn't make any sense to provide HD on the web right now.

The main problem for me is: we work directly on location with laptops. And these systems simply don't handle live previews with HD material and Magic Bullet video filters applied...

This in mind, also producing with a attached firestore simply won't work as there's no live SD/DV feed via Firewire during the shoot.

Any ideas on that? :( Thanks.

and btw: my first post! I'm happy to join this community!

Bill Ritter · July 19th, 2007, 08:34 AM

I have done several weddings and other events shooting in HD and downconverting to SD after I edit in HD. I also tried with the same material output from camcorder in SD and edited in SD. The HD footage downconverted using the Prem Pro 2 (matrox accelerated) software was definitely superior quality. In a project where I mixed the two you can see the resolution increase every time.

I could be wrong, but I think the reason is that miniDV is 500-550 lines of resolution and the HD is 1440x1080 (shown as 1920x1080) and when you save as a NTSC Standard Definition mpeg for your DVD from an HD timieline it down converts in software so you get the full SD 700 lines your TV can display. Not the more limited miniDV standard of 500-550 lines.

Bill in Ohio

Daniel Raebiger · July 19th, 2007, 09:39 AM

here are a few shots for comparison:

http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01hu7.jpg
Native SD PAL 16:9 in Camera - Output with deinterlacing

http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01wodkx5.jpg
Native SD PAL 16:9 in Camera - Output without deinterlacing

http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02mv3.jpg
HDV 16:9 with in-Camera Conversion to SD - Output with deinterlacing

http://img461.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02wodws9.jpg
HDV 16:9 with in-Camera Conversion to SD - Output without deinterlacing

http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03zl8.jpg
HDV 16:9 set to 'resize to fit' in SD- Project within Premiere - Output with deinterlacing

http://img352.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03woduv1.jpg
HDV 16:9 set to 'resize to fit' in SD- Project within Premiere - Output without deinterlacing

what do you think? :)

Jim Bucciferro · July 30th, 2007, 12:39 PM

Daniel,
It seems like the best approach is either the native DV or HD->SD conversion in post, although the native DV non-interlaced had better resolution.

I like the idea of an HDV master tape, but I wonder if it's worth the hassle this early - I will be doing my first wedding and I want to make sure that I don't mess it up by capturing HDV and then having problems in post.

Jim

Daniel Raebiger · July 30th, 2007, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Bucciferro

I will be doing my first wedding

The poor bride... if you know already that it's not going to be your last... :(

^^

yep seems like this. have to test 25f modes btw - i have high hopes that the internal deinterlacer does a better job than premiere does. having the stupid deinterlace thingy done in-camera would be sweet!

Dennis Murphy · July 30th, 2007, 05:44 PM

The best quality downconversion I've found thus far (I'm in PAL land and a Premier Pro2 Windows XP user) is:

1. Capture m2t.
2. Import into Canon 25f HDV Adobe preset.
3. Export Microsoft AVI (select compression NONE) @ 1920*1080 square pixels.
4. Import into a DV PAL project and scale by 53.4%
5. Export Microsoft AVI (select compression NONE) @ 720*576 square pixels.

It's a total drama doing this, but for shots that I just have to have the most premium downconvert for, I've found that it is my best quality workflow so far.

Daniel Raebiger · July 31st, 2007, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy

The best quality downconversion I've found thus far (I'm in PAL land and a Premier Pro2 Windows XP user) is:

1. Capture m2t.
2. Import into Canon 25f HDV Adobe preset.
3. Export Microsoft AVI (select compression NONE) @ 1920*1080 square pixels.
4. Import into a DV PAL project and scale by 53.4%
5. Export Microsoft AVI (select compression NONE) @ 720*576 square pixels.

It's a total drama doing this, but for shots that I just have to have the most premium downconvert for, I've found that it is my best quality workflow so far.

uhm how do you handle the ENRMOUS! amout of space that's required? why don't you skip step 3 and import directly into the DV project in the m2t format? Simply saving the m2t in uncompressed format won't increase quality in my opinion as saving the video that way will only save 'whats there' anyhow.

Dennis Murphy · July 31st, 2007, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Raebiger

uhm how do you handle the ENRMOUS! amout of space that's required? why don't you skip step 3 and import directly into the DV project in the m2t format? Simply saving the m2t in uncompressed format won't increase quality in my opinion as saving the video that way will only save 'whats there' anyhow.

Yeah it's killer on size allright. I only use this workflow with footage that I desperately want to be a pretty as possible.
I don't skip step 3 because I edit/colour etc the 1920*1080 footage in the .avi format. I tried the trial of cineform but didn't find it as clean or crisp an image as the uncompressed .avi.
I've been doing some green screen work (novice/experimental stuff), and found I pulled better keys with the 1920*1080 size than the downconverted PAL size.

Stuart Brontman · July 31st, 2007, 09:44 AM

What about the issue of capturing HDV at 16:9 and converting it to SD 4:3? Does the software automatically crop the image or do you get a squeezed SD output?

I've been using the A1 for several months now and love it. But now I have my first project where the output will only be SD 4:3.

I'm using Adobe Production Studio CS2.

Stuart

Brent Goodale · August 2nd, 2007, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart Brontman

What about the issue of capturing HDV at 16:9 and converting it to SD 4:3? Does the software automatically crop the image or do you get a squeezed SD output?

I've been using the A1 for several months now and love it. But now I have my first project where the output will only be SD 4:3.

I'm using Adobe Production Studio CS2.

Stuart

Im wondering the same thing about the aspect ratio......

Bill Pryor · August 3rd, 2007, 09:49 AM

I'm using FCP, and if I drop HDV clips into a 4:3 timeline, they automatically come in in the correct aspect ratio, but letterboxed. It's quick and easy to resize them and then apply that to all the clips. I'd assume most NLEs would have something similar.

July 9th, 2007, 05:27 AM	#17
Jim Bucciferro Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Shelton, CT USA Posts: 125	Using HDVSplit So I captured some HD footage and SD footage to compare. I was able to capture using HDVSplit - it created .m2t files that my editor (Avid Liquid 7.2) could read. With these files the editor seemed to work better - playback was still choppy but not as bad as with the MPEG2 files that Liquid created. So, capturing HDV for me seems to be doable. I then moved both the HD and SD clips to an SD timeline and rendered out .avis, and encoded with CCE Basic at 8MBPS. I had to resize the HD clips to fit the SD frame so I lost some resolution. The HD looked very nice converted to SD. Compared to the SD footage the HD seemed cleaner - maybe a little smoother than the SD footage which seemed sharper but seemed to have more noise. I used the default presets. All in all I am impressed with this camera. Once I get into the custom presets it should help. Thanks for your help. Jim

July 10th, 2007, 07:55 AM	#18
Glyn Wainwright New Boot Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 8	Resize in Post Thanks Ivan for the useful tute link. Just looking at converting from Ulead MSP7 to Premiere Pro 2 Quite a learning curve, but MSP7 doesn't handle HDV and XH A1 although I did some SD work already shot on A1. Intend to shoot HDV for future proofing but most clients need SD versions

July 10th, 2007, 01:03 PM	#19
Jim Bucciferro Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Shelton, CT USA Posts: 125	Hdi I bought the VASST video Inside the Canon XH-A1. This is a great video for showing the camera functionality - I've learned a lot already and will continuously reference it until I get a firm grasp of the camera. In the HDV section on editing Douglas talks about the HDI or HD intermediary format. It supposed to help with editing the HDV footage and since my pc is not very good for HDV maybe this will help. Does anyone use this format and if so which one? Thanks Jim

July 19th, 2007, 09:39 AM	#22
Daniel Raebiger Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Landshut, Germany Posts: 143	here are a few shots for comparison: http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01hu7.jpg Native SD PAL 16:9 in Camera - Output with deinterlacing http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01wodkx5.jpg Native SD PAL 16:9 in Camera - Output without deinterlacing http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02mv3.jpg HDV 16:9 with in-Camera Conversion to SD - Output with deinterlacing http://img461.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02wodws9.jpg HDV 16:9 with in-Camera Conversion to SD - Output without deinterlacing http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03zl8.jpg HDV 16:9 set to 'resize to fit' in SD- Project within Premiere - Output with deinterlacing http://img352.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03woduv1.jpg HDV 16:9 set to 'resize to fit' in SD- Project within Premiere - Output without deinterlacing what do you think? :) __________________ Important notice: There's still soup left!

July 30th, 2007, 12:39 PM	#23
Jim Bucciferro Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Shelton, CT USA Posts: 125	Comparison clips Daniel, It seems like the best approach is either the native DV or HD->SD conversion in post, although the native DV non-interlaced had better resolution. I like the idea of an HDV master tape, but I wonder if it's worth the hassle this early - I will be doing my first wedding and I want to make sure that I don't mess it up by capturing HDV and then having problems in post. Jim Last edited by Jim Bucciferro; July 30th, 2007 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Wrong name

July 9th, 2007, 05:14 AM	#16
Wade Hanchey Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 117	Thanks David.

July 19th, 2007, 08:34 AM	#21
Bill Ritter Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Beavercreek, OH Posts: 93	I have done several weddings and other events shooting in HD and downconverting to SD after I edit in HD. I also tried with the same material output from camcorder in SD and edited in SD. The HD footage downconverted using the Prem Pro 2 (matrox accelerated) software was definitely superior quality. In a project where I mixed the two you can see the resolution increase every time. I could be wrong, but I think the reason is that miniDV is 500-550 lines of resolution and the HD is 1440x1080 (shown as 1920x1080) and when you save as a NTSC Standard Definition mpeg for your DVD from an HD timieline it down converts in software so you get the full SD 700 lines your TV can display. Not the more limited miniDV standard of 500-550 lines. Bill in Ohio

July 30th, 2007, 05:44 PM	#25
Dennis Murphy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Whangarei, New Zealand Posts: 396	The best quality downconversion I've found thus far (I'm in PAL land and a Premier Pro2 Windows XP user) is: 1. Capture m2t. 2. Import into Canon 25f HDV Adobe preset. 3. Export Microsoft AVI (select compression NONE) @ 19201080 square pixels. 4. Import into a DV PAL project and scale by 53.4% 5. Export Microsoft AVI (select compression NONE) @ 720576 square pixels. It's a total drama doing this, but for shots that I just have to have the most premium downconvert for, I've found that it is my best quality workflow so far.

July 31st, 2007, 09:44 AM	#28
Stuart Brontman Contributor Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 228	What about the issue of capturing HDV at 16:9 and converting it to SD 4:3? Does the software automatically crop the image or do you get a squeezed SD output? I've been using the A1 for several months now and love it. But now I have my first project where the output will only be SD 4:3. I'm using Adobe Production Studio CS2. Stuart

August 3rd, 2007, 09:49 AM	#30
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I'm using FCP, and if I drop HDV clips into a 4:3 timeline, they automatically come in in the correct aspect ratio, but letterboxed. It's quick and easy to resize them and then apply that to all the clips. I'd assume most NLEs would have something similar.