HDV Head cleaner question

John Wallace · May 24th, 2007, 06:15 AM

A) Nope - but I know of a manky old Ferguson Videostar (still in use!) that would surely benefit from a bit of TLC

B) Z1 was split new last April and I've only ever used Sony PHDVM-63 DM tapes in there - have had stock mixing issues on other heads/productions.

Looks like a bad batch then, which begs the question why am I paying an average £10 a cart for 'master' quality tapes?!

(That's a rhetorical question btw - I've read all about the S/N benefits before).

I will keep hassling Sony and the vendor about this. No liabilities warrantied, I know, with regards to lost footage but I feel I at least should get a refund for the bad carts under the 'not fit for purpose as sold' principle.

Thanks again for the tips.

best

jw

Tom Hardwick · May 24th, 2007, 06:42 AM

Yes, certainly go after a refund as I'm pretty sure Sony will be well arare of the problem with your batch.

As to the signal:noise ratio claim - you're joking, right? In digital the cheapest tape is every bit as good as the dearest. LP, SP and DVCAM all record exactly the same pictures and sound. Paying more simply means you're hoping for less dropout.

Not so in your case John.

tom.

John Wallace · May 24th, 2007, 08:07 AM

Re. S/N claim: wasn't joking but I think we're saying the same thing in the end.

I know that digital is digital but am sure I read a post recently where someone had demonstrated that more errors make the error correction features of the HDV format work harder.

If the errors get too much for the software, then a dropout occurs. Shooting HDV means I'm in GOP land where a corrupted frame could mean losing all the others in the group that hang off it and result in a much longer period of dropout than with non-GOP formats.

Made sense to me at least. This, of course, is working to the (possibly erroneous) assumption that a greater degree of 'noise' means a greater likelihood of errors.

Of course, none of this has much to do with hulking great bands of crap turning up on the emulsion!

As you're in the UK, I wonder if you know of any tape rescue facilities geared up to address material shot in HDV?

I'll take it the crinkled ones are gone forever but I have another that's become divorced from its take-up reel and another where something funky has happened to the tension and it won't play.

Would still rather pay someone else to mess up their transport than risk any of my own in what might be a fruitless exercise...

Cheers again

jw

Maksim Yankovskiy · May 24th, 2007, 12:07 PM

Trish,

A word from Canon Rep I got a hold of and talked with in person several days ago (he was visiting my local video store) specifically on XH-A1 was that Canon does not recommend using cleaning tapes until the "heads dirty" message pops up. In his words, any regular use of cleaning tapes is just "sanding the heads".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trish Kerr

Thanks Bill.

I'll go for the 50 hour estimate. Would that calculate in playback time on the head as well - ie, the capture process, reviewing the footage. Or 50 hours of taping only

A possibly dump question I know.

trish

Cesare Improta · May 24th, 2007, 12:56 PM

I'm new to this forum and I want to send a a big "ciao" to all members.
I'm from Italy - city: Napoli

I own a PANASONIC DX100 since August 1998 and I never used a cleaning tape.
In hundreds of operations hours I have encountered only 2-3 dropouts.

But note I have always used new or almost new tapes, stored in dry, cool and dark places full rewinded to start. The camera itself is always stored closed in its bag, during shooting pause too.

Tom Hardwick · May 25th, 2007, 02:28 AM

You're spot on with your GOP talk John, and sorry, I don't have any experience with retrieval agencies here. Of course dropouts will have a far greater detrimental effect on MPEG2 recordings than on plain DV, which is why you've been tempted to pay 8x over the odds to limit the times this occurs. Getting a one hour SD tape to hold one hour of HiDef doesn't come without compromises and side-effects.

You've been sold landfill tapes, so back to Sony Premiums, I say. And like you, I'd keep dodgy tapes well away from my delicate tape deck mechanisms.

tom.

Paul Joy · May 25th, 2007, 07:54 AM

Can I get an opinion from you guys on the following:-

I purchased a couple of the Sony Digital Master tapes with my A1 and as I've been waiting for new tapes to be delivered I've reused both tapes a couple of times while experimenting with the camera. The thing about these tapes though is that they cost around £15 each! After reading lots of good things about the Panasonic AMQ tapes I've purchased five of them at £5 each, a good saving over the Sony's.

Do you think running a head cleaner will be enough for me to switch tapes now, or am I likely to run into problems after having the Sony's in there? At £10 difference I'm sure it would actually be more cost effective to have the camera cleaned before switching to the AMQ's than to keep using the Sony's :)

Paul.

John Wallace · May 25th, 2007, 08:06 AM

Most of the threads I've read suggest it's better sticking ot one tape for the life of the kit - there's more than just the head in the equation to get messed up. A few quid per cart won't feel like much of a discount if you end up with blocky, droppy footage or a tape jam.

ProTape do a better price on the Sony tapes than that in the UK and deliver next day (no I'm not on their payroll!).

Last 10 PHDVM63-DM I bought came to £113 including Vat and shipping.

jw

Bill Pryor · May 25th, 2007, 08:17 AM

If you just run the head cleaning tape for about 5 seconds before switching to the AMQ tapes, you should be OK. That's what I did and I haven't seen a single dropout in probably 25-30 tapes recorded so far. It's not a big deal, really. What you don't want to do is switch back and forth a lot.

I've used Sony DVCAM tapes for years with no trouble at all, but with the XH A1 I decided to switch to the Panasonic AMQ tapes because of recommendations from one dealer who's sold a lot of XL H1 and XH A1 cameras. He said most of his customers use the AMQs and have no trouble, and lots of them shoot under adverse conditions. I've always been a bit of a fanatic about good quality tape, but there's a difference between buying good tape and throwing away money. The Sony equivalents to the AMQs are close to double in price, and that's ridiculous in my opinion.

There's a lot of hype about tape, and both brands have published information citing all sorts of data about why theirs is best. From what I've seen, both from the dealer I mentioned and with people locally shooting HDV, the Panasonic AMQs seem to be becoming the tape of choice. Not that I'm trying to pimp Panasonic; I'm sticking with DVCAM tape for the DVCAM cameras.

Trish Kerr · May 25th, 2007, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maksim Yankovskiy

Trish,

A word from Canon Rep I got a hold of and talked with in person several days ago (he was visiting my local video store) specifically on XH-A1 was that Canon does not recommend using cleaning tapes until the "heads dirty" message pops up. In his words, any regular use of cleaning tapes is just "sanding the heads".

That's pretty much what the manager at the store explained originally. With the newer cameras you don't need to clean them unless there's a problem, but I don't know what the difference in tech on the decks are with the new versus older models.

Trish

May 24th, 2007, 12:56 PM	#35
Cesare Improta New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Napoli, Italy Posts: 6	Myth PANASONIC DX100 I'm new to this forum and I want to send a a big "ciao" to all members. I'm from Italy - city: Napoli I own a PANASONIC DX100 since August 1998 and I never used a cleaning tape. In hundreds of operations hours I have encountered only 2-3 dropouts. But note I have always used new or almost new tapes, stored in dry, cool and dark places full rewinded to start. The camera itself is always stored closed in its bag, during shooting pause too.

May 25th, 2007, 08:06 AM	#38
John Wallace Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Dumfriesshire, UK Posts: 41	Sony/Panasonic Tape Most of the threads I've read suggest it's better sticking ot one tape for the life of the kit - there's more than just the head in the equation to get messed up. A few quid per cart won't feel like much of a discount if you end up with blocky, droppy footage or a tape jam. ProTape do a better price on the Sony tapes than that in the UK and deliver next day (no I'm not on their payroll!). Last 10 PHDVM63-DM I bought came to £113 including Vat and shipping. jw

May 24th, 2007, 06:15 AM	#31
John Wallace Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Dumfriesshire, UK Posts: 41	A) Nope - but I know of a manky old Ferguson Videostar (still in use!) that would surely benefit from a bit of TLC B) Z1 was split new last April and I've only ever used Sony PHDVM-63 DM tapes in there - have had stock mixing issues on other heads/productions. Looks like a bad batch then, which begs the question why am I paying an average £10 a cart for 'master' quality tapes?! (That's a rhetorical question btw - I've read all about the S/N benefits before). I will keep hassling Sony and the vendor about this. No liabilities warrantied, I know, with regards to lost footage but I feel I at least should get a refund for the bad carts under the 'not fit for purpose as sold' principle. Thanks again for the tips. best jw

May 24th, 2007, 06:42 AM	#32
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Yes, certainly go after a refund as I'm pretty sure Sony will be well arare of the problem with your batch. As to the signal:noise ratio claim - you're joking, right? In digital the cheapest tape is every bit as good as the dearest. LP, SP and DVCAM all record exactly the same pictures and sound. Paying more simply means you're hoping for less dropout. Not so in your case John. tom.

May 24th, 2007, 08:07 AM	#33
John Wallace Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Dumfriesshire, UK Posts: 41	Re. S/N claim: wasn't joking but I think we're saying the same thing in the end. I know that digital is digital but am sure I read a post recently where someone had demonstrated that more errors make the error correction features of the HDV format work harder. If the errors get too much for the software, then a dropout occurs. Shooting HDV means I'm in GOP land where a corrupted frame could mean losing all the others in the group that hang off it and result in a much longer period of dropout than with non-GOP formats. Made sense to me at least. This, of course, is working to the (possibly erroneous) assumption that a greater degree of 'noise' means a greater likelihood of errors. Of course, none of this has much to do with hulking great bands of crap turning up on the emulsion! As you're in the UK, I wonder if you know of any tape rescue facilities geared up to address material shot in HDV? I'll take it the crinkled ones are gone forever but I have another that's become divorced from its take-up reel and another where something funky has happened to the tension and it won't play. Would still rather pay someone else to mess up their transport than risk any of my own in what might be a fruitless exercise... Cheers again jw

May 25th, 2007, 02:28 AM	#36
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	You're spot on with your GOP talk John, and sorry, I don't have any experience with retrieval agencies here. Of course dropouts will have a far greater detrimental effect on MPEG2 recordings than on plain DV, which is why you've been tempted to pay 8x over the odds to limit the times this occurs. Getting a one hour SD tape to hold one hour of HiDef doesn't come without compromises and side-effects. You've been sold landfill tapes, so back to Sony Premiums, I say. And like you, I'd keep dodgy tapes well away from my delicate tape deck mechanisms. tom.

May 25th, 2007, 07:54 AM	#37
Paul Joy Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Norfolk, UK Posts: 627	Can I get an opinion from you guys on the following:- I purchased a couple of the Sony Digital Master tapes with my A1 and as I've been waiting for new tapes to be delivered I've reused both tapes a couple of times while experimenting with the camera. The thing about these tapes though is that they cost around £15 each! After reading lots of good things about the Panasonic AMQ tapes I've purchased five of them at £5 each, a good saving over the Sony's. Do you think running a head cleaner will be enough for me to switch tapes now, or am I likely to run into problems after having the Sony's in there? At £10 difference I'm sure it would actually be more cost effective to have the camera cleaned before switching to the AMQ's than to keep using the Sony's :) Paul.

May 25th, 2007, 08:17 AM	#39
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	If you just run the head cleaning tape for about 5 seconds before switching to the AMQ tapes, you should be OK. That's what I did and I haven't seen a single dropout in probably 25-30 tapes recorded so far. It's not a big deal, really. What you don't want to do is switch back and forth a lot. I've used Sony DVCAM tapes for years with no trouble at all, but with the XH A1 I decided to switch to the Panasonic AMQ tapes because of recommendations from one dealer who's sold a lot of XL H1 and XH A1 cameras. He said most of his customers use the AMQs and have no trouble, and lots of them shoot under adverse conditions. I've always been a bit of a fanatic about good quality tape, but there's a difference between buying good tape and throwing away money. The Sony equivalents to the AMQs are close to double in price, and that's ridiculous in my opinion. There's a lot of hype about tape, and both brands have published information citing all sorts of data about why theirs is best. From what I've seen, both from the dealer I mentioned and with people locally shooting HDV, the Panasonic AMQs seem to be becoming the tape of choice. Not that I'm trying to pimp Panasonic; I'm sticking with DVCAM tape for the DVCAM cameras.