A1 grainy picture problem

Bill Busby · May 9th, 2007, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Cronin

The heat wave squirming effect is what I am calling noise/grain. Maybe I have the wrong term but I can’t get rid of it in any setting.

Now I'm totally confused & most likely I'll stay that way :D

Nathan Quattrini · May 9th, 2007, 07:51 AM

The H1 is nice, but honestly its not so much a shoulder friendly camera as I hoped it might be which is another reason I`m looking at the A1. The H1 is about 10 pounds loaded and very front heavy. Everyone says the chips and lense are the same on both (though the obvious detachability on the H1) so I`m curious to see how your tests come out. Also, i downloaded my file and it worked fine :\ Not sure whats going on with that.

Paul Cronin · May 9th, 2007, 08:48 AM

Bill,
Sorry I am not trying to confuse you. Please let me know how you are confused and I will try and be clearer.

Nathan,
Yea I don't want to add weight to my camera since I am in tight spots on the water. The A1, Z1, V1 size works for me up mast while sailing, moving on the deck in rough weather and down below. There are times in chase boats and helicopters that I could handle a bigger camera but that is only about 25% of my shooting. Sorry I was in a hurry this morning and will try the download again. I had three programs running on my laptop so it might have been the computer.

Paul Cronin · May 9th, 2007, 09:05 AM

Nathan,

Yup it was my computer this morning no problem downloading this time.

Nice RI early spring scenes and both ducks bobbing at the same time is fun.

I could no problem at 49 sec.

Steven Dempsey · May 9th, 2007, 09:50 AM

Paul, I haven't been following this thread so I just kind of skimmed through it. I agree with others that some of what you are interpreting as a camera problem is actually atmospheric conditions. When you are zoomed at full you are actually magnifying heat shimmer and haze that is naturally in the air.

What I would suggest you do is take a set of binoculars to the same scene with you and look through them and see if you are observing the same kind of shimmer.

I have encountered this phenomenon many times while shooting outdoors but have never considered it a camera problem.

Without seeing full rez footage and seeing all the settings on your camera for myself, it's difficult to figure out exactly what is wrong.

Do you know anyone else that has any kind of digital video camera? Even a handycam would be useful to take with you to compare.

Paul Cronin · May 9th, 2007, 10:09 AM

Thanks Steve for taking the time to answer my e-mail.

Good point with the binoculars my wife suggested that Monday and there was some heat rising but not as bad as the camera. So yes that is part of it at full zoom but not at full wide in my studio where there is a noise/grain problem

I will put full res on when I test again and detail of settings. When the camera arrives tomorrow I will take 4 full days of testing and document it all. This will all be done along side a Sony V1 and the HV-20.

I do take the HV-20 along and the footage is excellent with out the same problem.

Steven Dempsey · May 9th, 2007, 10:12 AM

Okay well I would suggest you do a scientific test. Set both cameras up at the same focal length and shoot the same scene. Keep both presets as flat as possible and as similar as possible and then post the two shots to the forum here.

Paul Cronin · May 9th, 2007, 10:14 AM

Will do thank you!

Nathan Quattrini · May 9th, 2007, 03:54 PM

its tough to see in the wmv as its super compressed, so I tossed the m2t up...zipped its still 70 megs...maybe its just my machine...not sure, but drop the file into an NLE if you have time and view it at 100% and you can see whole sections of the branches shifting around. IS was off and while the tripod was shaking in the wind, it couldn`t cause the morphing you can see (unless its just my computer seeing it)

http://www.kiukle.com/temp/morph.zip

Khoi Pham · May 9th, 2007, 04:08 PM

I can see the camera is shaking a little bit from the tripod, but I don't see nothing wrong with that clip, for sure I don't see no morph, maybe you should have your eyes check. (-: or get another monitor.

Steven Dempsey · May 9th, 2007, 04:13 PM

Can't say I saw anything weird either...

Jim Miller · May 9th, 2007, 05:46 PM

I did more tests today on my A1 and made some very interesting observations.

At full zoom in bright sunlight I saw very obvious shimmering on an image at approx 100 meters. I was not running tape. The A1 was directly connected to my 32in HD 1080p monitor. Auto focus was off. While making some notes a cloud passed over placing the image in bright shade and all movement stopped! The image was rock steady! When the sun came back so did the shimmering. It wasn't the same movement you see from heat just movement of the whole image. I backed the zoom off to approx 80-85 percent and all movement went away again. Numerous image directly to the monitor in shade followed but still no movement.

I can only surmise that this was due to heat or due to to the specular nature of bright sunlight reflecting from the various objects in the picture. There did not seem to be any blocking in the image.

At this point I don't feel the problem is in the camera.

Steven Dempsey · May 9th, 2007, 05:49 PM

Jim, I agree with your observations.

Nathan Quattrini · May 10th, 2007, 07:49 AM

Interesting find. I also notice that most CA occurs only in bright direct sunlight, perhaps they are related issues from the lense design?

As for my clip its odd because I see it on my monitor here and at home. I am very nitpicky about how everything looks as are many here so I`m shocked no one else is seeing it...am I losing my mind?

Awaiting Paul's finding as well

Steven Dempsey · May 10th, 2007, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan Quattrini

am I losing my mind?

I don't want to rule anything out yet

:)

May 9th, 2007, 07:51 AM	#77
Nathan Quattrini Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Warwick, Rhode Island Posts: 740	The H1 is nice, but honestly its not so much a shoulder friendly camera as I hoped it might be which is another reason I`m looking at the A1. The H1 is about 10 pounds loaded and very front heavy. Everyone says the chips and lense are the same on both (though the obvious detachability on the H1) so I`m curious to see how your tests come out. Also, i downloaded my file and it worked fine :\ Not sure whats going on with that. __________________ Cinematography Site

May 9th, 2007, 08:48 AM	#78
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Bill, Sorry I am not trying to confuse you. Please let me know how you are confused and I will try and be clearer. Nathan, Yea I don't want to add weight to my camera since I am in tight spots on the water. The A1, Z1, V1 size works for me up mast while sailing, moving on the deck in rough weather and down below. There are times in chase boats and helicopters that I could handle a bigger camera but that is only about 25% of my shooting. Sorry I was in a hurry this morning and will try the download again. I had three programs running on my laptop so it might have been the computer. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

May 9th, 2007, 09:05 AM	#79
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Nathan, Yup it was my computer this morning no problem downloading this time. Nice RI early spring scenes and both ducks bobbing at the same time is fun. I could no problem at 49 sec. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

May 9th, 2007, 09:50 AM	#80
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	Paul, I haven't been following this thread so I just kind of skimmed through it. I agree with others that some of what you are interpreting as a camera problem is actually atmospheric conditions. When you are zoomed at full you are actually magnifying heat shimmer and haze that is naturally in the air. What I would suggest you do is take a set of binoculars to the same scene with you and look through them and see if you are observing the same kind of shimmer. I have encountered this phenomenon many times while shooting outdoors but have never considered it a camera problem. Without seeing full rez footage and seeing all the settings on your camera for myself, it's difficult to figure out exactly what is wrong. Do you know anyone else that has any kind of digital video camera? Even a handycam would be useful to take with you to compare. __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

May 9th, 2007, 10:09 AM	#81
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Thanks Steve for taking the time to answer my e-mail. Good point with the binoculars my wife suggested that Monday and there was some heat rising but not as bad as the camera. So yes that is part of it at full zoom but not at full wide in my studio where there is a noise/grain problem I will put full res on when I test again and detail of settings. When the camera arrives tomorrow I will take 4 full days of testing and document it all. This will all be done along side a Sony V1 and the HV-20. I do take the HV-20 along and the footage is excellent with out the same problem. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

May 9th, 2007, 10:12 AM	#82
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	Okay well I would suggest you do a scientific test. Set both cameras up at the same focal length and shoot the same scene. Keep both presets as flat as possible and as similar as possible and then post the two shots to the forum here. __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

May 9th, 2007, 10:14 AM	#83
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Will do thank you! __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

May 9th, 2007, 03:54 PM	#84
Nathan Quattrini Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Warwick, Rhode Island Posts: 740	its tough to see in the wmv as its super compressed, so I tossed the m2t up...zipped its still 70 megs...maybe its just my machine...not sure, but drop the file into an NLE if you have time and view it at 100% and you can see whole sections of the branches shifting around. IS was off and while the tripod was shaking in the wind, it couldn`t cause the morphing you can see (unless its just my computer seeing it) http://www.kiukle.com/temp/morph.zip __________________ Cinematography Site

May 9th, 2007, 04:08 PM	#85
Khoi Pham Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Posts: 747	I can see the camera is shaking a little bit from the tripod, but I don't see nothing wrong with that clip, for sure I don't see no morph, maybe you should have your eyes check. (-: or get another monitor. __________________ Khoi Pham www.proeditproductions.com

May 9th, 2007, 04:13 PM	#86
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	Can't say I saw anything weird either... __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

May 9th, 2007, 05:46 PM	#87
Jim Miller Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tampa,Florida Posts: 236	I did more tests today on my A1 and made some very interesting observations. At full zoom in bright sunlight I saw very obvious shimmering on an image at approx 100 meters. I was not running tape. The A1 was directly connected to my 32in HD 1080p monitor. Auto focus was off. While making some notes a cloud passed over placing the image in bright shade and all movement stopped! The image was rock steady! When the sun came back so did the shimmering. It wasn't the same movement you see from heat just movement of the whole image. I backed the zoom off to approx 80-85 percent and all movement went away again. Numerous image directly to the monitor in shade followed but still no movement. I can only surmise that this was due to heat or due to to the specular nature of bright sunlight reflecting from the various objects in the picture. There did not seem to be any blocking in the image. At this point I don't feel the problem is in the camera.

May 9th, 2007, 05:49 PM	#88
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	Jim, I agree with your observations. __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

May 10th, 2007, 07:49 AM	#89
Nathan Quattrini Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Warwick, Rhode Island Posts: 740	Interesting find. I also notice that most CA occurs only in bright direct sunlight, perhaps they are related issues from the lense design? As for my clip its odd because I see it on my monitor here and at home. I am very nitpicky about how everything looks as are many here so I`m shocked no one else is seeing it...am I losing my mind? Awaiting Paul's finding as well __________________ Cinematography Site