A1 grainy picture problem

Piotr Wozniacki · May 8th, 2007, 05:01 AM

Paul, I'm trying to help you (and potentially others) to assess the quality of a 20x zoom in those "affordable" camcorders. The previous clip is progressive (25PsF; please play it back without deinterlacing, or severe twittering will be visible - nothing to do with th original problem discussed here), now a link to another scene, this time interlaced:

http://rapidshare.com/files/30147153/tele2.m2t

(again apologies for the hand-held quality).

Paul Cronin · May 8th, 2007, 05:15 AM

Piotr thanks for the downloads but the RapidShare system says I have reached my limit and will not let me download.

Piotr Wozniacki · May 8th, 2007, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Cronin

Piotr thanks for the downloads but the RapidShare system says I have reached my limit and will not let me download.

Paul, I guess you have to wait a couple of minutes - it usually works fine. Sorry the first clip is quite big:).

Paul Cronin · May 8th, 2007, 07:29 AM

I have downloaded both but my editing system (avid Liquid) will not play the video only the audio. I have tried in 60i, 25fps, 24fps, non-interlaced, interlaced with no luck.
Do you have other options on sending?

Bill Busby · May 8th, 2007, 07:38 AM

Paul, try VLC media player. It's been mentioned many times on the forums here.

www.videolan.org

Bill

Piotr Wozniacki · May 8th, 2007, 07:40 AM

Paul, you don't need NLE - just use any software mpeg player (WMP if your're on Windows, or VLC). VLC is better, as it allows to switch deinterlace on or off (so does Nero Showtime, for instance).

Paul Cronin · May 8th, 2007, 08:08 AM

Thanks Bill and Piotr I will now view the files once when I finish with a client in a hour.

I called Canon Service center and the tech will call me back this afternoon with a report. I explained the situation and they were very understanding. Is Canon always this easy to deal with I am very impressed? They told me to hold onto the second camera and feel they can resolve the problem.

I also have my computer guru coming this afternoon. We have another avenue where we think the problem my be happening (my monitor/video card).

Stay tuned and I really appreciate all the help. Where would we be with out DVinfo.net!

Paul Cronin · May 8th, 2007, 08:56 AM

Piotr the second video looks crips but hard to tell with all the movement at full zoom but looks like there is not the same problem. But again hard to tell with the movement.

I will wait the 45 min they suggest I have to wait to do the big download.

Paul Cronin · May 8th, 2007, 10:16 AM

Piotr your first clip on my 24 HD monitor is great colors. Not as bad with noise/grain as my Canon but I still see a bit at the second half of the zoom.

I think Jim and Petri both have good points. At 20 times there is a problem with heat/movement. And as Petri said I am expecting too much from this level of camera. I am lead at this time to think the Z1 produced a better picture with the Century optics 1.6 tele at full zoom then the A1 and V1 do at full zoom with out the attached lens. That is with Z1 in 60i and the A1 at 30F.

It will be interesting to hear what Canon has to say this afternoon.

Piotr Wozniacki · May 8th, 2007, 02:15 PM

Paul, you're right my clips use to fast zooming, but I wanted to show all the stages between full wide and full tele, while keeping the file size as low as possible. Especially the shorter clip; you should probably slow it down near the end to see that there's no wave-like movement at all. As far as the longer one is concerned, I don't notice it anywhere, either. But perhaps I need better eye-glasses?

Paul Cronin · May 8th, 2007, 02:20 PM

Piotr you are correct I just looked at it again and maybe I can see 10% of what I am dealing with on both Canon A1 cameras.

I have talked with Canon once today and will call again now.

Paul Cronin · May 8th, 2007, 04:41 PM

I am told by Canon after two checks that the camera is to spec. They will send the camera back to me so I have it on Thursday. I will run through test suggested by Canon.

On the video I had sent on a tape which was manual focus they said it was auto focus. I make mistakes but not for 15 minutes of 20 different clips where I checked before and during each clip. They did admit that there is noise and grain but said it is to spec. The clip with the boat off behind the salt marsh they said it was focus hunting. But it was on manual.

Where I stand now is I am sending the second camera back. I can always rebuy it if the problem is solved. Also I am thinking of purchasing a Sony V1 since with the rebate they are within $300 now. Then test the V1 side by side for two days at that point decide what to do.

I have put my Z1 footage on one 24" monitor and A1 on the other in similar clips and you can't compare. Now the HV-20 stands up to the Z1 footage in all the clips.

Enough for today time for a nice evening with my wife.

Nathan Quattrini · May 8th, 2007, 05:34 PM

I`m curious about this problem being a prospective buyer of the A1. I have an H1 at work, and from what I`ve read its the same camera, just the lense is removable (and no jack pack). At full zoom I don`t have any issues, yet with slight movement you can see a "morphing" issue. 00:49 was at full zoom over the water on a 70 degree day. However at 1:00 you can see the tree branches 'morphing around....it was like that in the m2t as well. Any idea why I don`t see full zoom 'heat wave' like yours? And is the 'morphing' effect because of mpeg compression?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92992

Chuck Fadely · May 8th, 2007, 06:31 PM

I sometimes get the full-telephoto heat wave squirm effect also. I also get some weird focus pulse sometimes. (See previous thread http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84919 )

But none are consistent or repeatable. I'm wondering if it's rf inteference or some other electronic thing. Happens in mf with ois off.

Chuck

Paul Cronin · May 9th, 2007, 05:55 AM

Nathan,
The Iproblem I can’t resolve is the constant noise/grain. I get the problem at wide all the way through full zoom it is just more noticeable at full zoom. My computer says your file is corrupt (the Zipped big file) sorry I can't see what you are talking about at 49 sec. I did looke at the small file advertising the tape and that looked fine. I read in detail all of the H1 forum that I could and never heard of the problem. I have thought of going with a H1.

Chuck
The heat wave squirming effect is what I am calling noise/grain. Maybe I have the wrong term but I can’t get rid of it in any setting. Canon said this is not a problem and when the camera is doing this it is within spec. So when it gets back tomorrow I will do four full days of test shooting and see if I can resolve. Meantime the Sony V1 will be on order to fully compare.

May 8th, 2007, 05:01 AM	#61
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Paul, I'm trying to help you (and potentially others) to assess the quality of a 20x zoom in those "affordable" camcorders. The previous clip is progressive (25PsF; please play it back without deinterlacing, or severe twittering will be visible - nothing to do with th original problem discussed here), now a link to another scene, this time interlaced: http://rapidshare.com/files/30147153/tele2.m2t (again apologies for the hand-held quality). __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

May 8th, 2007, 05:15 AM	#62
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Piotr thanks for the downloads but the RapidShare system says I have reached my limit and will not let me download. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

May 8th, 2007, 07:29 AM	#64
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	I have downloaded both but my editing system (avid Liquid) will not play the video only the audio. I have tried in 60i, 25fps, 24fps, non-interlaced, interlaced with no luck. Do you have other options on sending? __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

May 8th, 2007, 07:40 AM	#66
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Paul, you don't need NLE - just use any software mpeg player (WMP if your're on Windows, or VLC). VLC is better, as it allows to switch deinterlace on or off (so does Nero Showtime, for instance). __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

May 8th, 2007, 08:08 AM	#67
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Thanks Bill and Piotr I will now view the files once when I finish with a client in a hour. I called Canon Service center and the tech will call me back this afternoon with a report. I explained the situation and they were very understanding. Is Canon always this easy to deal with I am very impressed? They told me to hold onto the second camera and feel they can resolve the problem. I also have my computer guru coming this afternoon. We have another avenue where we think the problem my be happening (my monitor/video card). Stay tuned and I really appreciate all the help. Where would we be with out DVinfo.net! __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

May 8th, 2007, 07:38 AM	#65
Bill Busby Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 959	Paul, try VLC media player. It's been mentioned many times on the forums here. www.videolan.org Bill

May 8th, 2007, 08:56 AM	#68
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Piotr the second video looks crips but hard to tell with all the movement at full zoom but looks like there is not the same problem. But again hard to tell with the movement. I will wait the 45 min they suggest I have to wait to do the big download. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

May 8th, 2007, 10:16 AM	#69
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Piotr your first clip on my 24 HD monitor is great colors. Not as bad with noise/grain as my Canon but I still see a bit at the second half of the zoom. I think Jim and Petri both have good points. At 20 times there is a problem with heat/movement. And as Petri said I am expecting too much from this level of camera. I am lead at this time to think the Z1 produced a better picture with the Century optics 1.6 tele at full zoom then the A1 and V1 do at full zoom with out the attached lens. That is with Z1 in 60i and the A1 at 30F. It will be interesting to hear what Canon has to say this afternoon. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

May 8th, 2007, 02:15 PM	#70
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Paul, you're right my clips use to fast zooming, but I wanted to show all the stages between full wide and full tele, while keeping the file size as low as possible. Especially the shorter clip; you should probably slow it down near the end to see that there's no wave-like movement at all. As far as the longer one is concerned, I don't notice it anywhere, either. But perhaps I need better eye-glasses? __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

May 8th, 2007, 02:20 PM	#71
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Piotr you are correct I just looked at it again and maybe I can see 10% of what I am dealing with on both Canon A1 cameras. I have talked with Canon once today and will call again now. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

May 8th, 2007, 04:41 PM	#72
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	I am told by Canon after two checks that the camera is to spec. They will send the camera back to me so I have it on Thursday. I will run through test suggested by Canon. On the video I had sent on a tape which was manual focus they said it was auto focus. I make mistakes but not for 15 minutes of 20 different clips where I checked before and during each clip. They did admit that there is noise and grain but said it is to spec. The clip with the boat off behind the salt marsh they said it was focus hunting. But it was on manual. Where I stand now is I am sending the second camera back. I can always rebuy it if the problem is solved. Also I am thinking of purchasing a Sony V1 since with the rebate they are within $300 now. Then test the V1 side by side for two days at that point decide what to do. I have put my Z1 footage on one 24" monitor and A1 on the other in similar clips and you can't compare. Now the HV-20 stands up to the Z1 footage in all the clips. Enough for today time for a nice evening with my wife. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

May 8th, 2007, 05:34 PM	#73
Nathan Quattrini Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Warwick, Rhode Island Posts: 740	I`m curious about this problem being a prospective buyer of the A1. I have an H1 at work, and from what I`ve read its the same camera, just the lense is removable (and no jack pack). At full zoom I don`t have any issues, yet with slight movement you can see a "morphing" issue. 00:49 was at full zoom over the water on a 70 degree day. However at 1:00 you can see the tree branches 'morphing around....it was like that in the m2t as well. Any idea why I don`t see full zoom 'heat wave' like yours? And is the 'morphing' effect because of mpeg compression? http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92992 __________________ Cinematography Site

May 8th, 2007, 06:31 PM	#74
Chuck Fadely Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: United States Posts: 306	I sometimes get the full-telephoto heat wave squirm effect also. I also get some weird focus pulse sometimes. (See previous thread http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84919 ) But none are consistent or repeatable. I'm wondering if it's rf inteference or some other electronic thing. Happens in mf with ois off. Chuck

May 9th, 2007, 05:55 AM	#75
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Nathan, The Iproblem I can’t resolve is the constant noise/grain. I get the problem at wide all the way through full zoom it is just more noticeable at full zoom. My computer says your file is corrupt (the Zipped big file) sorry I can't see what you are talking about at 49 sec. I did looke at the small file advertising the tape and that looked fine. I read in detail all of the H1 forum that I could and never heard of the problem. I have thought of going with a H1. Chuck The heat wave squirming effect is what I am calling noise/grain. Maybe I have the wrong term but I can’t get rid of it in any setting. Canon said this is not a problem and when the camera is doing this it is within spec. So when it gets back tomorrow I will do four full days of test shooting and see if I can resolve. Meantime the Sony V1 will be on order to fully compare. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com