Feedback needed for new preset at DVinfo.net

Steven Dempsey · April 3rd, 2007, 04:44 PM

Can someone please test this preset in a variety of situations? I've been trying to develop a preset that gives vibrant colors but without a color cast. There have been reports of magenta hues from other stuff I've created.

Gamma: Cine2
Color Matrix: Cine2
Color Gain: -15
Color Phase: 0
Knee: Low
Black: Middle
Master Ped: -7
Setup Level: 0
Horizontal Detail Frequency: Middle
H/V Detail balance: 0
Sharpness: 0
NR1: Off
NR2: Off
Coring: 0
Red Gain: 10
Green Gain: 15
Blue Gain: 15
RG Matrix: 10
RB Matrix: 10
GR Matrix: 10
GB Matrix: 15
BR Matrix: 25
BG Matrix: 25

Below is a still using this preset...

Bill Busby · April 3rd, 2007, 05:52 PM

Hey Steven, I haven't tested this, but judging from the still, at least on this monitor, it looks as if it has a green cast.

Bill

Chris Barcellos · April 3rd, 2007, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Busby

Hey Steven, I haven't tested this, but judging from the still, at least on this monitor, it looks as if it has a green cast.

Bill

I had the same feeling before I scrolled down and saw Bill's post. To me even seemed to show up in the tracks in the parking lot and in the black top...

Steven Dempsey · April 3rd, 2007, 06:12 PM

Yeah, I was looking at it on an uncalibrated monitor in work and now that I see it on my own monitor, it does have a greenish cast. Back to the drawing board. :)

EDIT: Actually, if anyone wants to take a stab at maintaining the vividness of the preset and losing the green cast without getting a magenta hue, I'd welcome it.

Eric Weiss · April 3rd, 2007, 06:55 PM

i can't post an attachment, but using color correcton i got it quite nice in vegas.

just boost the red midtones and a hint of saturation in the preset and you should have it.

here's an upload http://www.photoposting.net/fullsize.aspx/IDp~5920

Tom Roper · April 3rd, 2007, 08:37 PM

I spent a LOT of time finding a preset that was vibrant, yet without color casts.

Avoid all basic gains and cuts to the RGB channels. They thwart the white balance. Only use them if the white balance itself is what's broken. The answer for saturated color tones is found in the matrix adjustments. And for those, I shot a bowl of fruit, bananas, limes, red peppers, yellow peppers, green peppers, apples, grapes, oranges, cucumbers, onions, in a neutral tan basket, with shadow and light, sitting on dark furniture. (Okay I, realize some of those are vegetables). You always know what fruits and vegetables should look like. Sometimes with color bars, you don't. The color of wood is something you should strive to make faithful. You can easily see the effect of a lot of colors mixed into finished furniture, like excessive magenta and reds. Compare the colors on the the screen to the actual objects themselves. Glance back and forth. You can do this with the LCD screen.

And about the LCD screen, there is one thing you should know. After you exit the settings menu, the LCD goes back to default picture settings. Don't believe me? Turn color saturation down until it goes to black and white. Exit the menu. What happened? Back to full color display! Black and white goes to tape, but the LCD is completely useless for displaying your saved menu settings except while you are in the menu adjusting them. So don't trust it!

I had to define what I found wrong. An overall magenta hue to neutral tones, and severely muted greens, and slightly less severely muted reds. How I wanted to fix it, negate the magenta, and bring out the yellow inside greens, make the red and greens more saturated, and keep the whites looking white.

I adjusted each matrix setting to see the effect, wrote down what I observed before returning each back to zero, then moved on to record the next adjustment. You have to return each one to zero because if you don't, each successive adjustment will be a conglomeration of the previous adjustment, which is where I think Steven could be going wrong. He's adjusted everything, and most all of them in the same direction. My theory is to identify the exact change you want, and find the ONE adjustment that most successfully targets the change. Identify and target. Fewer, simpler, more subtle adjustments. Get the tonality in balance, then bring up the saturation, and retain the balance.

The thing I try and avoid though, is changing too many things at once. Except for saturation, all your settings are in the same direction. I believe if you turn one thing up, you should look for opportunities to turn something else down.

How many times have you seen a graphic equalizer with all the sliders pushed up? All the time! It just makes the frequency response worse. Same for video. Your baseline should be zeros.

Enough about how I did it. Here are the settings. This is my signature preset for outdoors, sunny or shade. Just about perfect. Vibrant but natural.

AWB=On (very trustworthy with these settings)
Aperture: F3.2-4.0 (Best for maximal resolution and contrast. Use ND to get desired shutter speed)
Gamma: Cine1
Color Matrix: N
Color Gain: +50 (You read right)
Color Phase: 0
Knee: Auto
Black: Middle
Master Ped: +2 (Enhances shadow detail, but if lighting is flat, use 0 for Master Ped)
Setup Level: 0
Horizontal Detail Frequency: High (reduces twitter and moire)
H/V Detail balance: 0
Sharpness: +3 (Crisp, but halo free)
NR1: Off
NR2: Off
Coring: 0
Red Gain: 0
Green Gain: 0
Blue Gain: 0
RG Matrix: 0
RB Matrix: -15 (Negates the magenta hue in neutral tones, makes wood look like wood)
GR Matrix: 0
GB Matrix: 8 (Makes red and greens more vibrant)
BR Matrix: 0
BG Matrix: 10 (Takes some blue from green, adds life to greens)

On my calibrated Pioneer Elite 1080p plasma monitor, these settings positively pop. Vibrant color adds contrast and makes the image look 3D, but realistic and natural. At least I think so. Hope they work for you.

Steven Dempsey · April 3rd, 2007, 09:33 PM

Wow, excellent post Tom. I'll give your setting a try. Thanks so much for sharing your insights.

Bill Busby · April 3rd, 2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

And about the LCD screen, there is one thing you should know. After you exit the settings menu, the LCD goes back to default picture settings. Don't believe me? Turn color saturation down until it goes to black and white. Exit the menu. What happened? Back to full color display! Black and white goes to tape, but the LCD is completely useless for displaying your saved menu settings except while you are in the menu adjusting them. So don't trust it!

Good post Tom, however this confuses me. Mine doesn't behave like that... unless I'm missing something in your statement. The only way mine would do as you say would be if there's no Preset active beforehand, or another Preset is active (different than the one being adjusted)... then of course it will default to whatever Preset was active OR not when exiting the menu.

What am I not getting? :-\

Bill

Tom Roper · April 4th, 2007, 07:19 AM

I'm just saying that once I exit the preset menu and go back to recording video, what gets displayed on the LCD does not look like what my current preset is. The LCD just goes back to default system colors. So for example, if I created a preset where I turned color saturation down to zero, i.e. black and white, once I escape the preset menu and start recording video, the LCD is displaying colors again.

If yours is not working like that, I'll have to look into it again.

Steven Dempsey · April 4th, 2007, 07:22 AM

Not sure what you are doing Tom but this is not the way the camera works. For instance, when I shoot using my black and white preset, the LCD reflects that monochrome look. The same holds true for all the others.

Marty Hudzik · April 4th, 2007, 07:39 AM

This behavior sounds like this is what is happening. I may be wrong but at least verify this is not it.

You are on Custom preset X. You go into your custom presets and choose CP Y. You adjust settings and you are seeing it on the screen. You save and you exit and then you see the changes disappear. This happens because you have gone back to Custom Preset X. You need to toggle to Custom Preset Y to see the changes you made. Or, if your custom preset is off it will do the same. The Camera stays in whatever mode you were in, regardless of what preset you chose to edit.

I hope that it is something simple like this. User error. I always say that I prefer that "I" make a bonehead error that I can simply correct rahter than it actually being a problem with the equipment I am using that I have to have fixed. Not saying you are a bonehead....just hoping that you are overlooking something simple.

The behavior you are describing is not how my A1 worked.

Good Luck!

Piotr Wozniacki · April 4th, 2007, 07:41 AM

You have to explicitely choose CP Y! Modifying and saving it is not enough - when you leave the menu, your active preset will be the one active before you entered the menu.

Tom Roper · April 4th, 2007, 07:57 AM

I'll try it right now and report back 10 minutes

Tom Roper · April 4th, 2007, 08:31 AM

I'm an idiot!!!!

I've imagined the whole thing! It's all been inside my head because I haven't had the custom preset switched on since I've had this cam. Grrrhhh!!!!

For helping me out of my imagined bliss, I hate you all! (Lol..)

And if I don't turn on the preset it didn't go to tape either. It sucks to be me right now.

Marty Hudzik · April 4th, 2007, 08:49 AM

At least your camera isn't broke! Good Luck from here.

Remember...what doesn't kill us......makes us stronger. And smarter.

Peace!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

I'm an idiot!!!!

I've imagined the whole thing! It's all been inside my head because I haven't had the custom preset switched on since I've had this cam. Grrrhhh!!!!

For helping me out of my imagined bliss, I hate you all! (Lol..)

And if I don't turn on the preset it didn't go to tape either. It sucks to be me right now.

April 3rd, 2007, 04:44 PM	#1
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	Feedback needed for new preset Can someone please test this preset in a variety of situations? I've been trying to develop a preset that gives vibrant colors but without a color cast. There have been reports of magenta hues from other stuff I've created. Gamma: Cine2 Color Matrix: Cine2 Color Gain: -15 Color Phase: 0 Knee: Low Black: Middle Master Ped: -7 Setup Level: 0 Horizontal Detail Frequency: Middle H/V Detail balance: 0 Sharpness: 0 NR1: Off NR2: Off Coring: 0 Red Gain: 10 Green Gain: 15 Blue Gain: 15 RG Matrix: 10 RB Matrix: 10 GR Matrix: 10 GB Matrix: 15 BR Matrix: 25 BG Matrix: 25 Below is a still using this preset... Attached Thumbnails __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

April 3rd, 2007, 06:12 PM	#4
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	Yeah, I was looking at it on an uncalibrated monitor in work and now that I see it on my own monitor, it does have a greenish cast. Back to the drawing board. :) EDIT: Actually, if anyone wants to take a stab at maintaining the vividness of the preset and losing the green cast without getting a magenta hue, I'd welcome it. __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

April 3rd, 2007, 06:55 PM	#5
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	i can't post an attachment, but using color correcton i got it quite nice in vegas. just boost the red midtones and a hint of saturation in the preset and you should have it. here's an upload http://www.photoposting.net/fullsize.aspx/IDp~5920 Last edited by Eric Weiss; April 3rd, 2007 at 07:05 PM. Reason: upped a pic

April 3rd, 2007, 09:33 PM	#7
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	Wow, excellent post Tom. I'll give your setting a try. Thanks so much for sharing your insights. __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

April 4th, 2007, 07:22 AM	#10
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	Not sure what you are doing Tom but this is not the way the camera works. For instance, when I shoot using my black and white preset, the LCD reflects that monochrome look. The same holds true for all the others. __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

April 3rd, 2007, 05:52 PM	#2
Bill Busby Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 959	Hey Steven, I haven't tested this, but judging from the still, at least on this monitor, it looks as if it has a green cast. Bill

April 3rd, 2007, 08:37 PM	#6
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	I spent a LOT of time finding a preset that was vibrant, yet without color casts. Avoid all basic gains and cuts to the RGB channels. They thwart the white balance. Only use them if the white balance itself is what's broken. The answer for saturated color tones is found in the matrix adjustments. And for those, I shot a bowl of fruit, bananas, limes, red peppers, yellow peppers, green peppers, apples, grapes, oranges, cucumbers, onions, in a neutral tan basket, with shadow and light, sitting on dark furniture. (Okay I, realize some of those are vegetables). You always know what fruits and vegetables should look like. Sometimes with color bars, you don't. The color of wood is something you should strive to make faithful. You can easily see the effect of a lot of colors mixed into finished furniture, like excessive magenta and reds. Compare the colors on the the screen to the actual objects themselves. Glance back and forth. You can do this with the LCD screen. And about the LCD screen, there is one thing you should know. After you exit the settings menu, the LCD goes back to default picture settings. Don't believe me? Turn color saturation down until it goes to black and white. Exit the menu. What happened? Back to full color display! Black and white goes to tape, but the LCD is completely useless for displaying your saved menu settings except while you are in the menu adjusting them. So don't trust it! I had to define what I found wrong. An overall magenta hue to neutral tones, and severely muted greens, and slightly less severely muted reds. How I wanted to fix it, negate the magenta, and bring out the yellow inside greens, make the red and greens more saturated, and keep the whites looking white. I adjusted each matrix setting to see the effect, wrote down what I observed before returning each back to zero, then moved on to record the next adjustment. You have to return each one to zero because if you don't, each successive adjustment will be a conglomeration of the previous adjustment, which is where I think Steven could be going wrong. He's adjusted everything, and most all of them in the same direction. My theory is to identify the exact change you want, and find the ONE adjustment that most successfully targets the change. Identify and target. Fewer, simpler, more subtle adjustments. Get the tonality in balance, then bring up the saturation, and retain the balance. The thing I try and avoid though, is changing too many things at once. Except for saturation, all your settings are in the same direction. I believe if you turn one thing up, you should look for opportunities to turn something else down. How many times have you seen a graphic equalizer with all the sliders pushed up? All the time! It just makes the frequency response worse. Same for video. Your baseline should be zeros. Enough about how I did it. Here are the settings. This is my signature preset for outdoors, sunny or shade. Just about perfect. Vibrant but natural. AWB=On (very trustworthy with these settings) Aperture: F3.2-4.0 (Best for maximal resolution and contrast. Use ND to get desired shutter speed) Gamma: Cine1 Color Matrix: N Color Gain: +50 (You read right) Color Phase: 0 Knee: Auto Black: Middle Master Ped: +2 (Enhances shadow detail, but if lighting is flat, use 0 for Master Ped) Setup Level: 0 Horizontal Detail Frequency: High (reduces twitter and moire) H/V Detail balance: 0 Sharpness: +3 (Crisp, but halo free) NR1: Off NR2: Off Coring: 0 Red Gain: 0 Green Gain: 0 Blue Gain: 0 RG Matrix: 0 RB Matrix: -15 (Negates the magenta hue in neutral tones, makes wood look like wood) GR Matrix: 0 GB Matrix: 8 (Makes red and greens more vibrant) BR Matrix: 0 BG Matrix: 10 (Takes some blue from green, adds life to greens) On my calibrated Pioneer Elite 1080p plasma monitor, these settings positively pop. Vibrant color adds contrast and makes the image look 3D, but realistic and natural. At least I think so. Hope they work for you.

April 4th, 2007, 07:19 AM	#9
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	I'm just saying that once I exit the preset menu and go back to recording video, what gets displayed on the LCD does not look like what my current preset is. The LCD just goes back to default system colors. So for example, if I created a preset where I turned color saturation down to zero, i.e. black and white, once I escape the preset menu and start recording video, the LCD is displaying colors again. If yours is not working like that, I'll have to look into it again.

April 4th, 2007, 07:39 AM	#11
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	This behavior sounds like this is what is happening. I may be wrong but at least verify this is not it. You are on Custom preset X. You go into your custom presets and choose CP Y. You adjust settings and you are seeing it on the screen. You save and you exit and then you see the changes disappear. This happens because you have gone back to Custom Preset X. You need to toggle to Custom Preset Y to see the changes you made. Or, if your custom preset is off it will do the same. The Camera stays in whatever mode you were in, regardless of what preset you chose to edit. I hope that it is something simple like this. User error. I always say that I prefer that "I" make a bonehead error that I can simply correct rahter than it actually being a problem with the equipment I am using that I have to have fixed. Not saying you are a bonehead....just hoping that you are overlooking something simple. The behavior you are describing is not how my A1 worked. Good Luck!

April 4th, 2007, 07:41 AM	#12
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	You have to explicitely choose CP Y! Modifying and saving it is not enough - when you leave the menu, your active preset will be the one active before you entered the menu. __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

April 4th, 2007, 07:57 AM	#13
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	I'll try it right now and report back 10 minutes

April 4th, 2007, 08:31 AM	#14
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Read Carefully so there's no misunderstanding... I'm an idiot!!!! I've imagined the whole thing! It's all been inside my head because I haven't had the custom preset switched on since I've had this cam. Grrrhhh!!!! For helping me out of my imagined bliss, I hate you all! (Lol..) And if I don't turn on the preset it didn't go to tape either. It sucks to be me right now.