XH A1E (PAL) - 'black line' downconvert problem

[Bill Engeler]

I can now say that this problem exists with the A1, the HV10 and the HV20. There is something with the conversion system that Canon uses with all these PAL cameras that appears to generate this.

I had a frustrating time trying to report this to Canon. After 3 emails, it seemed I was back to the beginning, and since then have heard nothing from them. It doesn't appear to be a problem that Canon Europe can solve, but perhaps if everybody contacts Canon, they might pass the complaints on to Japan, and something might get done on a higher level.

[Steven Cowie]

Not a solution but i find an 8 pixel top and bottom crop at export /final encoding stage is easiest way to deal with it (certainly a lot faster than transcoding from HD to DV in the NLE)

[Richard Hunter]

Originally Posted by Steven Cowie

(certainly a lot faster than transcoding from HD to DV in the NLE)

And also a lot faster than getting any kind of response from Canon. Their customer PR seems to be non-existent.

[Rolf Seitz]

I just received an email from Canon Germany Helpdesk:

"Sehr geehrte Kundin,
Sehr geehrter Kunde,


vielen Dank für Ihre Anfrage zur XH-A1.

Da Softwareplayer mehr Zeilen anzeigen als Fernseher passiert es sehr oft, dass die sog. Systemezeilen am PC dargestellt werden.

Wenn Sie den Film jedoch auf DVD brennen und diesen anschließend auf dem Fernseher wiedergeben sollten diese Systemzeilen nicht mehr angezeigt werden.

Probieren Sie es aus.


Mit freundlichen Grüssen,

Canon Support Centre"

As if I didn´t know about overscan...tsss just imagine your camcorder producing a pink frame outside the action safe area, HAHAHA Canon would claim: "But you will not see a pink frame on a normal TV set"

I just answered them that when you watch the video letterboxed you can still see the black line...

[Rolf Seitz]

I just got a reply to my second email, sorry for ze german ;)

"Sehr geehrte Kundin,
Sehr geehrter Kunde,


wie bereits in der vorhergegangenen Email beschrieben handelt es sich hierbei um System- bzw Rücklaufzeilen. Dabei ist unsere Vermutung, dass entweder der Film nicht korrekt skaliert oder der Fernseher nicht korrekt in der Amplitude eingestellt ist.

Wenn ein Film im Letterboxverfahren an einem 4:3-Fernseher angezeigt wird dann geschieht dies in einer Auflösung von 720 x 431 Zeilen. (Also es wird in der vertikalen Auflösung reduziert.)

Bei guter Videobearbeitungssoftware können Sie die Skalierung einstellen. Nehmen Sie dafür den o.g. Wert.

Wie bereits bekanntgegeben können wir, anhand Ihrer Beschreibungen, einen Gerätefehler ausschließen.


Mit freundlichen Grüssen,

Canon Support Centre"

Is that a Joke? Can anybody please comment on that?

[Daniel Raebiger]

this is totally rediciolous... i have this problem to (german pal version). the support telling me to burn the stuff to dvd and watching it on a tv isn't really a solution. first of all modern hdtv screens prove a true scan function which display the whole 720x576 range (as mine does) and secondly not everyone produces for a dvd release. in my case for a internet-show....

any news on this? maybe a firmware update? :(

[Jack Atley]

Sorry for drudging up the past , but I have encountered the same thing in some of my footage and it was visible on a normal CRT TV 4:3. I initially thought it was an interlacing issue caused by my PAL HV 20 which I deck with. And the way it is sending through my progressive footage in an interlaced shell.
Due to this my NLEs' were giving a upper field dominance to the footage which I manually changed to none and made the same changes in the Pro Res Sequence in the time line in FCS. Which was getting me more palatable results.
I am total newb and didn't realise it was the down conversion which I was also applying in deck that was causing this.
I have often read that to down convert in cam is best practice , and to get to your output format as quickly as possible ( SD 16:9 Pal DVD) was also desirable hence my in camera down conversion.
Did a firmware upgrade come and fix this ?
Does this happen to both Progressive and interlaced footage?
As I said I am a newb feel free to correct me if my workflow ideas are all messed up lol

[Vasco Dones]

For what it's worth:
I own an NTSC A1 with PAL "upgrade",
and usually shoot HDV 25 frames ("PAL").
I downconvert using the Sony HVR-M15U deck
(http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...p_HDV_VTR.html)
and everything works perfectly.
My two cents...

Vasco

[David Chia]

I am using a NTSC XHA1 with Pal upgrade done on it. I recently shot a training video in HDV and down converted it to SD from the camera just to try it out . ( material was shot in 50i)

I burn it to a DVD and guess what ?

I don't see the line that you guys are talking about?

No flicking line for me here.

DVD is viewed on a normal CRT TV ( bought it in year 1999)

[David Chia]

Sorry guys,

My mistake. I converted NTSC footage instead.

I tried and do a Pal footage. And I can tell you that there is a line here too. I saw it in my captured files in FCP.

I think it is the problem with the Pal system.

I own a NTSC camera and got a Pal upgrade done with Canon.

So this is surly a Pal problem when down converting using the camera. It is a software problem from Canon . As Vasco was able to down convert it using a Sony HVR-M15U deck or the rest of us was able to do it within our NLE without the black line.

[Phil Taylor]

I have been told to do the conversion in my editing program (Edius), not in the camera. Can't remember the reason givin but perhaps it's the same one that all of you are experiencing!

[Dirk Bouwen]

Originally Posted by Hernan Vilchez

Just discovered it also... incredible! Anyone has got any decent answer from Canon?

I was one of the first wave of XH A1 users in my country, back in November 2006. I encountered this problem very soon, tried a second camera in the same shop, which showed the same issue.

Then I send in the camera, and had a whole discussion with the Canon after sales services, and the third party repair service that works for Canon to fix problems. Nothing got solved, and my camera was 'within spec', discussion closed.

It surprises me that even in the new A1's, Canon didn't fix this issue. Very annoying when you want a quick conversion to PAL footage. I expected a firmware upgrade somewhere down the line to fix this type of issues, but it never came.

After all, post production is the only way to get to a decent downconvert.

[David Chia]

I got this reply from Canon:

It has come to our attention that Canon Europa is aware of this and at
this time the only workaround, if you are creating content for the web,
is to slightly crop the image so the line does not show. If you are
creating content for TV, the line is outside the TV viewing area and is
not visible once displayed on a TV monitor.

The other workaround, as you have mentioned, is to down convert the file
using the computer instead of the camcorder.

A service notice may be released as soon as a resolution is found.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with your XH
A1.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Chris
Technical Support Representative

[Daniel Raebiger]

well at least they admit the error now. when i contacted canon last year they said there's nothing wrong. as for a fix: i doubt we'll ever see one... the camera's on the market now for nearly 2 years...