How to set up a firmware update wishlist?

Piotr Wozniacki · January 26th, 2007, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

- ND display (warning and ND1/ND2 differentiation)

1. Perhaps I should be more precise: It's there already, but not in Auto mode (why?) and NOT with AGC off (which we usually use that way), so practically it never fires. It should.

2. Also I'd like all setting to be possible to display on a TV in playback (focus discance used, iris, zoom distance, shutther speed etc). Very helpful in analyzing shoots.

3. Speaking of AGC: I'd like to use it sometimes, but have an option to set a max gain value the camcorder will never exceed (AGC limit).

EDIT: sorry, I'm still learning; of course the gain, f and F values CAN be displayed at playback (camera data on, available in disply menu in playback mode only); nevertheless the focus/zoom values should be displayable as well.

Chris Hurd · February 2nd, 2007, 02:43 PM

The poll is now open for voting...

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84297

Here are the poll options which made the final cut:

OIS On / Off mappable to Custom Key
XLR On / Off mappable to Custom Key
Default Shutter speed in 25F of 1/50th
Additional Shutter speeds (1/33rd and/or 1/40th)
Option to display Shutter values in degrees
Preset maximum Gain value for AGC
Add intermediate steps in Gain (+9db, +15db)
F. Asst. Mag. on displays / analog out during Rec.
Allow Peaking and Zebra together
Customize Peaking color and intensity
Option to flip image (but not displays) in viewfinders
Option to flip image to tape and over video outputs
Move AE Shift function from menu to iris ring
Histogram On / Off for Video (record and playback)
Display active C. Preset name (record and playback)
Display lens info (focus and zoom) on playback
Display remaining battery time in real minutes
Function setting for Long Push of "End Play" button
Soft clipping / limiter in Manual Audio mode
Allow digital zoom in Standard Definition recording
Option: AF off during zoom (prevent focus pulsing)
Photo buttons as optional Custom Keys

-------------------------------------------------------

There were two items which didn't make the list. One was "remember shutter speed (from A to Tv) on power-up." If I recall correctly this has never been available on a Canon XL or GL camcorder in the past.

The other was "CP select via menu Set wheel." That wheel already performs constant duty as the headphone volume controller. If you set your Custom Key #2 to "CP Select Backward," then you've got a fairly convenient way to shuttle back and forth between the Custom Presets. Pretty easy once you get used to it.

Stu Siegal · February 2nd, 2007, 02:46 PM

WOOHOO!

Thanks, Chris, you're the man.

Feel good about this,especially after the HV20 announcement, seems like Canon listens and responds.

Gotta go vote...

Alex Leith · February 2nd, 2007, 04:05 PM

Thanks Chris.

Michael Mann · February 2nd, 2007, 04:22 PM

Thank you!

Michael Mann · February 2nd, 2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Siegal

Feel good about this,especially after the HV20 announcement, seems like Canon listens and responds.

Yes, makes me hope too that we might get heard. Thanks again, Chris, Stu, Alex and all who contributed.

Alex Leith · February 2nd, 2007, 04:35 PM

And thank you Michael for pushing this along!

Raymond Toussaint · February 12th, 2007, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Yes... really.

It works exactly as I have described. Tv mode plus Exp. Lock equals Manual mode. There is no difference, except that shooting this way in Tv mode is better than shooting in Manual mode because it offers exactly what you want: the ability to switch between automatic exposure control and manual exposure control at the push of a button.

Honestly I can't sympathize with your complaint about having to push the Exp. Lock button a second time; after all it really doesn't take much effort to lift a finger.

Not ...really.

It works in completely different mode. In TV mode you have ful range F1.6 - F22 aperture! In Manual mode F1.6 - F9.5 and close. The TV mode has a longer electronic aperture control. And push is not the same as lock as I described above. The Exposure is different in TV mode as in Manual mode.

BTW: I find it strange that you ask people what they think is important for a future upgrade, and that you -Chris- decide to put things in the poll or not. Other 'lift one finger issues' like setting it from standard 25p to 50p are in. And the 'push mode in manual' not. Do you decide for me what is important?

Chris Hurd · February 12th, 2007, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond Toussaint

Do you decide for me what is important?

No. I would never pretend to decide for anybody what is important.

Instead I decide for my site what is important. If you disagree with it, then you really need to start your own site / message board / blog / whatever, and run it the way *you* want and make your own decisions. Hope this helps,

Raymond Toussaint · February 12th, 2007, 11:08 AM

That is something completely different Chris, to start a blog. I already have one. But that was not the point. That the aperture in TV mode goes up to F22 and the lens itself to F9,5 seems to be import info for your site. But to my surprise, that was not the thing you noticed in my posting!

I think I made my point very clear, what the difference is in Manual and TV mode and the difference in push iris (like push focus) and lock iris. That is my opinion. Until now,your arguments (it's the same) are not very valid.

Chris Hurd · February 12th, 2007, 12:54 PM

The very small aperture values of f/22, f/17 and so on are possible in Tv mode or A mode only, and only when the shutter speed is set to a very slow speed, or when gain is increased, or when Neutral Density should be used but isn't. There is a very important reason why those values do not belong in M manual mode.

Small aperture values (f/11 to f/22 etc.) in HD camcorders using small image sensors (i.e., every 1/3rd-inch HD camcorder) tend to induce an optical phenomenon known as diffraction which makes accurate focus impossible. In order to prevent diffraction, the smallest allowable aperture value that can be manually assigned to the camera is f/9.5. It is a safeguard against diffraction when shooting in manually in the M program mode.

However if the intention is to shoot at very slow shutter speeds, or at high gain (or for some reason, with Neutral Density off when it should be on), then the camcorder will indeed resort to very small lens aperture values from f/11 to f/22 in order to produce a usable, not ideal, but usable image under those user-induced circumstances. At this point diffraction is no longer an issue because the image is already compromised by the effects of slow shutter or high gain, but at least these effects are intentional since they were induced on purpose by the shooter.

In other words, small aperture values (f/11 to f/22) are not at all desirable in this class of HD camcorders because of the diffraction effect. There are three conditions in either Tv mode or A mode in which the camera will resort to these very small aperture values in order to produce a usable image:

1. very slow shutter speeds,
2. a high gain setting,
3. ND off when it should be on

It is *not* possible to manually dial in an aperture value below f/9.5, nor would you want to do this, as it would induce the diffraction effect (which destroys the ability to focus properly).

It *is* possible to force an aperture value aperture value below f/9.5, if your main priority is to shoot with a very slow shutter speed (hence the name "shutter priority" for Tv mode) or with a high gain setting in Tv or A mode.

If for some reason you want a very small aperture value, the best way to get it is to shoot in Tv mode with either a slow shutter speed or a high gain setting. Use the Exp. Lock button to fix the aperture at the small value, and then change shutter speed and/or gain accordingly. You'll then have an f/22 aperture with shutter and gain where you want it... plus the confounding focus problems associated with the diffraction effect.

Small aperture values are a non-issue with slow shutter and/or high gain, because the effects of a slow shutter speed and/or a high gain setting will degrade the image to the point where diffraction is not a problem (and such degradation is perfectly acceptable when it's intentional).

However with a standard shutter speed (or higher), and with gain low (or off), and with the proper use of Neutral Density filters (two of which are built into the camera), any aperture setting smaller than f/9.5 will induce diffraction. That's why f/9.5 is the smallest possible aperture value in the M manual mode. If these cameras allowed the manual input of smaller aperture values from f/11 to f/22, a shooter unfamiliar with the effects of diffraction would think the camera is broken because they're unable to focus properly at f/15 or any of those aperture settings.

And while it is still possible to manually induce diffraction, the manufacturer has made it difficult for the shooter to commit this mistake: the only way to do it is to set the gain high and point the camera at a very bright source of light in Tv or A mode, and then lower the gain and/or press Exp. Lock to manually change shutter speed.

There is no logical reason to change that.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 14th, 2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond Toussaint

Not ...really.

It works in completely different mode. In TV mode you have ful range F1.6 - F22 aperture! In Manual mode F1.6 - F9.5 and close. The TV mode has a longer electronic aperture control. And push is not the same as lock as I described above. The Exposure is different in TV mode as in Manual mode.

Thanks Raymond for pointing this out, and Chris for further explanation. With the deficit of light we have in this time of year, I wouldn't have noticed that in Tv mode the aperture can indeed go so low (and cause difraction effects)! It's not documented in the manual well enough; if I remember correctly (don't have the manual handy at the moment), it only states what aperture value can be adopted in the Manual and Av modes (up to 9.5) but doesn't say a single word about apertures available in the Tv mode - kind of strange, considering the possible effects on the picture quality. BTW, it's also strange to me that in Av mode you can only dial the apertures up to 9.5 (just as in full Manual) - the aperture priority would seem THE right mode for the greatest freedom of choosing any aperture value, mechanically achievable by the machine! Hmm....this leads to a question: we now know what the diference between Manual and Shutter Priority modes is; how does the Aperture Priority (Av) mode differ from Manual after locking exposure? Any surprises in this department, as well?

February 2nd, 2007, 02:43 PM	#122
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	The poll is now open for voting... http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84297 Here are the poll options which made the final cut: OIS On / Off mappable to Custom Key XLR On / Off mappable to Custom Key Default Shutter speed in 25F of 1/50th Additional Shutter speeds (1/33rd and/or 1/40th) Option to display Shutter values in degrees Preset maximum Gain value for AGC Add intermediate steps in Gain (+9db, +15db) F. Asst. Mag. on displays / analog out during Rec. Allow Peaking and Zebra together Customize Peaking color and intensity Option to flip image (but not displays) in viewfinders Option to flip image to tape and over video outputs Move AE Shift function from menu to iris ring Histogram On / Off for Video (record and playback) Display active C. Preset name (record and playback) Display lens info (focus and zoom) on playback Display remaining battery time in real minutes Function setting for Long Push of "End Play" button Soft clipping / limiter in Manual Audio mode Allow digital zoom in Standard Definition recording Option: AF off during zoom (prevent focus pulsing) Photo buttons as optional Custom Keys ------------------------------------------------------- There were two items which didn't make the list. One was "remember shutter speed (from A to Tv) on power-up." If I recall correctly this has never been available on a Canon XL or GL camcorder in the past. The other was "CP select via menu Set wheel." That wheel already performs constant duty as the headphone volume controller. If you set your Custom Key #2 to "CP Select Backward," then you've got a fairly convenient way to shuttle back and forth between the Custom Presets. Pretty easy once you get used to it. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 2nd, 2007, 04:05 PM	#124
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	Thanks Chris. __________________ Alex

February 2nd, 2007, 04:22 PM	#125
Michael Mann Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kelkheim, Germany Posts: 375	Thank you! __________________ Michael

February 2nd, 2007, 04:35 PM	#127
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	And thank you Michael for pushing this along! __________________ Alex

February 12th, 2007, 12:54 PM	#131
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	The very small aperture values of f/22, f/17 and so on are possible in Tv mode or A mode only, and only when the shutter speed is set to a very slow speed, or when gain is increased, or when Neutral Density should be used but isn't. There is a very important reason why those values do not belong in M manual mode. Small aperture values (f/11 to f/22 etc.) in HD camcorders using small image sensors (i.e., every 1/3rd-inch HD camcorder) tend to induce an optical phenomenon known as diffraction which makes accurate focus impossible. In order to prevent diffraction, the smallest allowable aperture value that can be manually assigned to the camera is f/9.5. It is a safeguard against diffraction when shooting in manually in the M program mode. However if the intention is to shoot at very slow shutter speeds, or at high gain (or for some reason, with Neutral Density off when it should be on), then the camcorder will indeed resort to very small lens aperture values from f/11 to f/22 in order to produce a usable, not ideal, but usable image under those user-induced circumstances. At this point diffraction is no longer an issue because the image is already compromised by the effects of slow shutter or high gain, but at least these effects are intentional since they were induced on purpose by the shooter. In other words, small aperture values (f/11 to f/22) are not at all desirable in this class of HD camcorders because of the diffraction effect. There are three conditions in either Tv mode or A mode in which the camera will resort to these very small aperture values in order to produce a usable image: 1. very slow shutter speeds, 2. a high gain setting, 3. ND off when it should be on It is not possible to manually dial in an aperture value below f/9.5, nor would you want to do this, as it would induce the diffraction effect (which destroys the ability to focus properly). It is possible to force an aperture value aperture value below f/9.5, if your main priority is to shoot with a very slow shutter speed (hence the name "shutter priority" for Tv mode) or with a high gain setting in Tv or A mode. If for some reason you want a very small aperture value, the best way to get it is to shoot in Tv mode with either a slow shutter speed or a high gain setting. Use the Exp. Lock button to fix the aperture at the small value, and then change shutter speed and/or gain accordingly. You'll then have an f/22 aperture with shutter and gain where you want it... plus the confounding focus problems associated with the diffraction effect. Small aperture values are a non-issue with slow shutter and/or high gain, because the effects of a slow shutter speed and/or a high gain setting will degrade the image to the point where diffraction is not a problem (and such degradation is perfectly acceptable when it's intentional). However with a standard shutter speed (or higher), and with gain low (or off), and with the proper use of Neutral Density filters (two of which are built into the camera), any aperture setting smaller than f/9.5 will induce diffraction. That's why f/9.5 is the smallest possible aperture value in the M manual mode. If these cameras allowed the manual input of smaller aperture values from f/11 to f/22, a shooter unfamiliar with the effects of diffraction would think the camera is broken because they're unable to focus properly at f/15 or any of those aperture settings. And while it is still possible to manually induce diffraction, the manufacturer has made it difficult for the shooter to commit this mistake: the only way to do it is to set the gain high and point the camera at a very bright source of light in Tv or A mode, and then lower the gain and/or press Exp. Lock to manually change shutter speed. There is no logical reason to change that. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 2nd, 2007, 02:46 PM	#123
Stu Siegal Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 151	WOOHOO! Thanks, Chris, you're the man. Feel good about this,especially after the HV20 announcement, seems like Canon listens and responds. Gotta go vote...

February 12th, 2007, 11:08 AM	#130
Raymond Toussaint Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 173	That is something completely different Chris, to start a blog. I already have one. But that was not the point. That the aperture in TV mode goes up to F22 and the lens itself to F9,5 seems to be import info for your site. But to my surprise, that was not the thing you noticed in my posting! I think I made my point very clear, what the difference is in Manual and TV mode and the difference in push iris (like push focus) and lock iris. That is my opinion. Until now,your arguments (it's the same) are not very valid.