Kaku's footage at DVinfo.net

Jerry Gordon · November 3rd, 2006, 10:57 PM

Not trying to start anything...just trying to learn.

First my apologies as I missed did not remember seeing the settings posted by Chris.

My question, is how did Kaku determine what shutter speed and aperture to use in his shots? a light meter? experience?

I would assume that a light meter would not be practical in run and shoot so you would need to know lighting and settings well enough to go straight to them?

I noticed they were not tripod mounted either.

But Chris or Kaku or someone, can you also confirm these settings were set manually or in the program/auto mode? And the gain was at 0. was it set manually or in auto also?
I ask because maybe if auto in everything then the camera set the aperture and shutter speed for the 0 gain. if not I would really like to know if he set the settings manually for each shooting, how I can become proficient enough to look at a scene and know what setting to go to quickly like that?

thanks and hope this post is ok
Jerry.

Jerry Gordon · November 3rd, 2006, 11:06 PM

I would also ask this.

I assume that Kaku's was HD as Chris said best viewed on an HDTV.....so were his in HD?

Either way, since Daniel's was in SD, with the noise in his, if he had shot in HD mode would the same low light problem prob be there in the HD mode as well or would the HD be better?

Perhaps and I know Chris closed the thread and I am not trying to reopen it either, but just trying to comprehend this and learn from it, but perhaps Daniel's being shot in auto had less to do with it than it being SD, and Katu's being HD? that's assuming Kaku's is HD..which I don't know for sure....Chris?

but either way, if you shoot low light in SD mode and there is noise and such, is it safe to assume that you will have the same problem in the HD mode or none in the HD mode or less?

Just trying to understand, thanks for the patience
and Thanks for your patience with me as well Pete
Jerry

Pete Bauer · November 4th, 2006, 06:27 AM

When shooting in manual mode you do, of course, know what your settings are. Your own hand has set the shutter, aperture, gain, exposure compensation (which Canon calls AE Shift), frame rate, custom presets, and even more settings to what you want. You've set those parameters based on the look you want to create and what you see in the viewfinder, which has a built-in exposure meter, optional zebra stripes to highlight bright areas, and your own eye to assess the framing and exposure. In Canon camcorders, shutter and/or aperture will be displayed in the viewfinder if they are set and will not automatically vary, including when Exp Lock is activated. For more on the details, I'll refer you to the user manuals.

Unless the situation is just too unpredictable and variable, almost all experienced camera-persons will choose either manual mode or an auto-exposure mode (Auto, Tv, Av, Spotlight, Night) with exposure lock for important shoots. The auto-exposure modes let the camera read the exposure and adjust parameters. They're faster than a human and don't blink or otherwise get distracted, but they operate on feedback loops and therefore have a slight lag. So in variable lighting the auto-exposure modes will often cause the image to get noticeably brighter and dimmer as conditions change. Part of the art is having an eye for this sort of thing and deciding how to shoot it.

Kaku may or may not wish to comment further about the specifics of his clips. His were the original M2T files; that's 1440x1080 HDV. He must have shot in manual or Exposure Lock since he did note all the pertinent settings.

Without revisiting that whole thread, I think I recall that Daniel shot HDV and did the down-rez at the end of the workflow. Down-rezzing might slightly mask the fine grain of video noise but I don't think that matters very much, especially if he used the same workflow for both clips.

Chris has said many times, because it is true, that the best way to understand a camera and know if it right for you is to put one in your hands and try it out. There's no substitute for hands on.

Chuck Fadely · November 4th, 2006, 07:05 AM

While these cameras are not professional cameras, they aspire to that status. In manual mode, they have literally hundreds of settings that you, as the operator, have to decide how to set. You need knowledge and experience, both in photography in general and in this camera in specific, to be able to use them that way.

But don't panic! Canon has this wonderful green box setting that makes everything automatic. It may not give the perfect setting for every situation, but it will give you something useable.

On the other hand, if you have aspirations of making theatrical-release movies and you don't already understand shutter speed, f-stop, gain, ND filters, knee, gamma, etc, maybe you need to spend your $4000 on education first before you spend it on a camera.

Even with education, though, photography is a craft that takes experience. No matter how much you study, you still will have to pick up a camera and shoot, shoot, shoot!

chuck

Gene Latimer · November 4th, 2006, 08:32 AM

Quote:

On the other hand, if you have aspirations of making theatrical-release movies and you don't already understand shutter speed, f-stop, gain, ND filters, knee, gamma, etc, maybe you need to spend your $4000 on education first before you spend it on a camera.
chuck

Any suggestions on the best books/DVDs that cover this set of knowledge?

Chris Hurd · November 4th, 2006, 10:10 AM

See our "Read About It" forum for discussions of a wide variety of helpful books; you can get basic camera / production training DVDs from companies like VASST; also depending on where you live, you can attend traveling training seminars (hosted by VASST, DV Creators, etc.) and locally hosted mini-film schools such as Austin Film Works for example.

Note: first two posts in this thread were edited, changing the incorrect "Katu" to the correct "Kaku." Nobody likes having their name mis-spelled!

Daniel Boswell · November 4th, 2006, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Gordon

Either way, since Daniel's was in SD...

Mine was NOT in SD!!!!!

Jerry Gordon · November 4th, 2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Boswell

Mine was NOT in SD!!!!!

No offense Daniel..
I thought that the final product was SD, that was what I was referring to..your final product clips you posted. if it was SD clips you posted my apologies. I did not mean to imply that you shot in SD mode.

But Daniel if I may ask, IF your final clips were SD and you went from HD to the SD, how did your HD footage look like? Was it noisy like the Clips(if SD that you posted). Please, Please don't take offense at what I said. I appreciate your efforts and how you shot as you described it, would be how I would shoot, without setting up a tripod or anything.
If your clips were actually HD that you posted then maybe it would have been better for me to view them on an HD screeen?

Pete, I understand what you meant. I know that when in the manual the person sets the setting, but I was thinking that like DSLR's, even if you shot in the auto mode you would have exif info that would give you the settings shot with....thus if he had shot in the auto mode he would have access to the settings via exif type info, right? So that was why I did ask if it was auto or manual, because you can determine settings even in the auto mode from exif info..

But thanks also for the reminder of the zebra stripes.

An interesting question, for me anyway...since you can see the scene in the viewfinder or the lcd, will it show also the noise and stuff from low light, thus being able to correct prior to shooting so that you get less noise...another words, being able to preview in the VF or lcd monitor, can you see the difference in them when you add or subtract gain?
thanks Jerry

Chris Hurd · November 4th, 2006, 02:13 PM

Mountain. Molehill. Why drag this out... give it a break please.

Meanwhile, EXIF data lives in the world of still photography, not video. And yes you can see the gain difference in the EVF, but whenever possible it's always a good idea to monitor in HD directly on the set.

Jerry Gordon · November 4th, 2006, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Mountain. Molehill. Why drag this out... give it a break please.

I apologize, i was not trying to make a mountain out of it but to try and understand and learn from it in a manner I can understand, as I am not as experienced nor video technically minded as most here.

I know that EXIF is in the still world, but had thought there might be something similar in the video world. I am sorry I was wrong in that assumption.

Thanks to all who have posted and helped. I have learned a lot here.
Sorry I wore on your patience, but i did appreciate your patience for a rank amateur here.

Giving it a break,
Thanks
Jerry

Kaku Ito · November 6th, 2006, 07:20 AM

My settings are pretty much what I described. I didn't even touch the gain at all. I didn't have any more time to do more creative shooting. Also, didn't do any shooting in SD.

Wasn't this mistake happened because Jerry had ND filters on? Remember the chopper clip I had with XL H1, I had the ND on and gain went up with the automatic setting. It seems to me this is what happened to Jerry's issue.

Actually, I learnt a lot from this forum, many professionals helped me, so the improvement of the footage on G1 comparing to H1 is based on my learning from this forum. Stay with 0 gain, if you don't want grainny, keep the exposure open as much as possible for better picture, have your LCD display set up right if you use that as the refference for the brightness
and so on. I had ease of shooting in dark than any other cams I owned and tried.

By the way, thanks to the staff to correct my name. Somewhere elese I was Kato.

November 3rd, 2006, 10:57 PM	#1
Jerry Gordon Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Leicester, nc Posts: 86	Kaku's footage Not trying to start anything...just trying to learn. First my apologies as I missed did not remember seeing the settings posted by Chris. My question, is how did Kaku determine what shutter speed and aperture to use in his shots? a light meter? experience? I would assume that a light meter would not be practical in run and shoot so you would need to know lighting and settings well enough to go straight to them? I noticed they were not tripod mounted either. But Chris or Kaku or someone, can you also confirm these settings were set manually or in the program/auto mode? And the gain was at 0. was it set manually or in auto also? I ask because maybe if auto in everything then the camera set the aperture and shutter speed for the 0 gain. if not I would really like to know if he set the settings manually for each shooting, how I can become proficient enough to look at a scene and know what setting to go to quickly like that? thanks and hope this post is ok Jerry.

November 4th, 2006, 06:27 AM	#3
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	When shooting in manual mode you do, of course, know what your settings are. Your own hand has set the shutter, aperture, gain, exposure compensation (which Canon calls AE Shift), frame rate, custom presets, and even more settings to what you want. You've set those parameters based on the look you want to create and what you see in the viewfinder, which has a built-in exposure meter, optional zebra stripes to highlight bright areas, and your own eye to assess the framing and exposure. In Canon camcorders, shutter and/or aperture will be displayed in the viewfinder if they are set and will not automatically vary, including when Exp Lock is activated. For more on the details, I'll refer you to the user manuals. Unless the situation is just too unpredictable and variable, almost all experienced camera-persons will choose either manual mode or an auto-exposure mode (Auto, Tv, Av, Spotlight, Night) with exposure lock for important shoots. The auto-exposure modes let the camera read the exposure and adjust parameters. They're faster than a human and don't blink or otherwise get distracted, but they operate on feedback loops and therefore have a slight lag. So in variable lighting the auto-exposure modes will often cause the image to get noticeably brighter and dimmer as conditions change. Part of the art is having an eye for this sort of thing and deciding how to shoot it. Kaku may or may not wish to comment further about the specifics of his clips. His were the original M2T files; that's 1440x1080 HDV. He must have shot in manual or Exposure Lock since he did note all the pertinent settings. Without revisiting that whole thread, I think I recall that Daniel shot HDV and did the down-rez at the end of the workflow. Down-rezzing might slightly mask the fine grain of video noise but I don't think that matters very much, especially if he used the same workflow for both clips. Chris has said many times, because it is true, that the best way to understand a camera and know if it right for you is to put one in your hands and try it out. There's no substitute for hands on. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

November 4th, 2006, 10:10 AM	#6
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	See our "Read About It" forum for discussions of a wide variety of helpful books; you can get basic camera / production training DVDs from companies like VASST; also depending on where you live, you can attend traveling training seminars (hosted by VASST, DV Creators, etc.) and locally hosted mini-film schools such as Austin Film Works for example. Note: first two posts in this thread were edited, changing the incorrect "Katu" to the correct "Kaku." Nobody likes having their name mis-spelled! __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 4th, 2006, 02:13 PM	#9
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Mountain. Molehill. Why drag this out... give it a break please. Meanwhile, EXIF data lives in the world of still photography, not video. And yes you can see the gain difference in the EVF, but whenever possible it's always a good idea to monitor in HD directly on the set. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 3rd, 2006, 11:06 PM	#2
Jerry Gordon Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Leicester, nc Posts: 86	I would also ask this. I assume that Kaku's was HD as Chris said best viewed on an HDTV.....so were his in HD? Either way, since Daniel's was in SD, with the noise in his, if he had shot in HD mode would the same low light problem prob be there in the HD mode as well or would the HD be better? Perhaps and I know Chris closed the thread and I am not trying to reopen it either, but just trying to comprehend this and learn from it, but perhaps Daniel's being shot in auto had less to do with it than it being SD, and Katu's being HD? that's assuming Kaku's is HD..which I don't know for sure....Chris? but either way, if you shoot low light in SD mode and there is noise and such, is it safe to assume that you will have the same problem in the HD mode or none in the HD mode or less? Just trying to understand, thanks for the patience and Thanks for your patience with me as well Pete Jerry

November 4th, 2006, 07:05 AM	#4
Chuck Fadely Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: United States Posts: 306	While these cameras are not professional cameras, they aspire to that status. In manual mode, they have literally hundreds of settings that you, as the operator, have to decide how to set. You need knowledge and experience, both in photography in general and in this camera in specific, to be able to use them that way. But don't panic! Canon has this wonderful green box setting that makes everything automatic. It may not give the perfect setting for every situation, but it will give you something useable. On the other hand, if you have aspirations of making theatrical-release movies and you don't already understand shutter speed, f-stop, gain, ND filters, knee, gamma, etc, maybe you need to spend your $4000 on education first before you spend it on a camera. Even with education, though, photography is a craft that takes experience. No matter how much you study, you still will have to pick up a camera and shoot, shoot, shoot! chuck

November 6th, 2006, 07:20 AM	#11
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	My settings are pretty much what I described. I didn't even touch the gain at all. I didn't have any more time to do more creative shooting. Also, didn't do any shooting in SD. Wasn't this mistake happened because Jerry had ND filters on? Remember the chopper clip I had with XL H1, I had the ND on and gain went up with the automatic setting. It seems to me this is what happened to Jerry's issue. Actually, I learnt a lot from this forum, many professionals helped me, so the improvement of the footage on G1 comparing to H1 is based on my learning from this forum. Stay with 0 gain, if you don't want grainny, keep the exposure open as much as possible for better picture, have your LCD display set up right if you use that as the refference for the brightness and so on. I had ease of shooting in dark than any other cams I owned and tried. By the way, thanks to the staff to correct my name. Somewhere elese I was Kato.