First Round FX vs. A1 at DVinfo.net

Daniel Boswell · November 2nd, 2006, 07:38 PM

So far..not impressed with the Canon and it looks as though it is no different from their SD cameras with unacceptable noise in low light.

Canon at 0db everything is else in auto:

http://homepage.mac.com/epiphany2002/0dbcanon.wmv

Sony at 0db everything in auto:

http://homepage.mac.com/epiphany2002/0dbsony.wmv

Holly Rognan · November 2nd, 2006, 07:50 PM

You should have put them on similiar settings, not auto.

The auto mode obviously gained up the canon more than the sony. The Sony is noticable less grainy, because the gain isn't as high.

At 0db, it sure did exhibit a fair amount of noise, but it looks that it was significantly lighter as well.

I bet that if you matched them as far as exposure is concerned they would be more similiar.

Doug Bennett · November 2nd, 2006, 07:52 PM

on my machine the canon is a lot brighter. But it would be better to test without the zooming.
I think Holly may be right about auto mode (on the canon anyway) messing with gain even if you leave it set at 0.

Matthew Nayman · November 2nd, 2006, 08:00 PM

Also, are those Standard def files? Shot in SD or HD? The grai will be much worse in SD, and also, ify ou down converted SD to HD, the grain will intensify.

I dont see that this is an accurate test, not according to the Night clip shot in the taxi on 0db gain...

Michael Y Wong · November 2nd, 2006, 08:04 PM

^^ most likely shot in HD downrezzed to SD.

to have that much grain in the canon video, the gain must be up, that is a TON of noise for 0db of gain.

Daniel Boswell · November 2nd, 2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holly Rognan

You should have put them on similiar settings, not auto.

The auto mode obviously gained up the canon more than the sony. The Sony is noticable less grainy, because the gain isn't as high.

At 0db, it sure did exhibit a fair amount of noise, but it looks that it was significantly lighter as well.

I bet that if you matched them as far as exposure is concerned they would be more similiar.

Umm..the gain was set manually at 0db for both and everything else was left in auto so the settings were the same.

In fairness, the Sony was done slightly after so at dusk..it probably had gotten slightly darker even though i twas only minutes after the Canon test.

Daniel Boswell · November 2nd, 2006, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Y Wong

^^ most likely shot in HD downrezzed to SD.

to have that much grain in the canon video, the gain must be up, that is a TON of noise for 0db of gain.

it was not downrezzed and both were in 0 db set manually

Pete Bauer · November 2nd, 2006, 08:17 PM

Yeah, I also agree with Holly. If you use Auto mode, cameras from different manufacturers will use different algorithms to change shutter, aperture, AND gain according to their engineering team's preferred solution, which may have a different "sweet spot" than another manufacturer's. I don't know about the Sony, but "Green Box" Easy Mode on Canon cameras ignore all manual settings; the actual "A" or Auto mode does allow manual gain control, but shutter and aperture would still be auto, so you don't really know what exposure it is trying to get to or exactly how. Maybe Green Box vs Auto is where the confusion lies, because it sure looks like the Canon was very much gained up.

It looks like the Canon achieved a much brighter image than the cleaner, but very much darker Sony clip. Since the final results differ by several stops in their final exposure, the Auto mode on the two cameras obviously arrived at such different endpoints that unfortunately it is pretty meaningless to compare these clips. For such a test to have validity, you first have to either set each camera manually to default/neutral settings, or optimized manual settings.

Holly Rognan · November 2nd, 2006, 08:22 PM

For those that may seem a little worried, don't be, these tests are far from a standardized test. It is interesting that anyone would even take them time to do a test and put it on auto. Who uses auto anyway, not to mention for an objective test?

I am utterly convinced that gain was used. I have never seen grainer footage from a camcorder that is fully open with 0db.

Holly Rognan · November 2nd, 2006, 08:24 PM

Is there anyway for you to do another test with lowlight, and manually open the iris and turn the gain off. Screw auto, it doesn't do the cam justice.

Brent Graham · November 2nd, 2006, 08:35 PM

For a lowlight test, I suggest Kaku's footage...

This was not a test:

Both in auto
Non Controlled lighting??! (are you kidding me?! it's a light test!)
HD camera used as SD?
Motion/Zooming shouldn't be necessary and only distracts from test

If it's important to you, I'd suggest re-doing the test making sure to keep everything locked down, cameras, gain, and lighting.

So far I'm extremely pleased with mine, seems to have great night sensitivity.

We all appreciate your work and intentions, but tests need to be controlled to carry weight on these boards, otherwise people just bicker.

Matthew Nayman · November 2nd, 2006, 08:39 PM

Not to threadjack...

Brent, how would say objectively the light light performance is?

Jay Stebbins · November 2nd, 2006, 08:42 PM

a few minutes at dusk can be huge difference...

Tony Tibbetts · November 2nd, 2006, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Boswell

So far..not impressed with the Canon and it looks as though it is no different from their SD cameras with unacceptable noise in low light.

So far... not impressed with your testing parameters. Try shooting at the same time, same framing, same settings. Please avoid auto mode.

Jerry Gordon · November 2nd, 2006, 09:51 PM

From an amateur that would of course use auto most of the time to start with...this would matter to me..my Sony VX2100 is better as far as noise in auto...
BUT, if the the gain was also set to auto would that make it a better picture, less noise.....full auto?

I have yet to learn about gain, so if I get it I would need auto for a bit.

Also was this SD or HD footage? thanks
Jerry

PS, I thought I had learned in digital SLR's that the more pixels(they are smaller then), that you crammed on a sensor, then you can expect noisy pics, could that be the case here?

November 2nd, 2006, 07:38 PM	#1
Daniel Boswell Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 189	First Round FX vs. A1 So far..not impressed with the Canon and it looks as though it is no different from their SD cameras with unacceptable noise in low light. Canon at 0db everything is else in auto: http://homepage.mac.com/epiphany2002/0dbcanon.wmv Sony at 0db everything in auto: http://homepage.mac.com/epiphany2002/0dbsony.wmv __________________ DBoZ

November 2nd, 2006, 08:04 PM	#5
Michael Y Wong Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada! Posts: 353	^^ most likely shot in HD downrezzed to SD. to have that much grain in the canon video, the gain must be up, that is a TON of noise for 0db of gain. __________________ dreaming hobbyist + storyteller www.michaelywong.com

November 2nd, 2006, 08:17 PM	#8
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Yeah, I also agree with Holly. If you use Auto mode, cameras from different manufacturers will use different algorithms to change shutter, aperture, AND gain according to their engineering team's preferred solution, which may have a different "sweet spot" than another manufacturer's. I don't know about the Sony, but "Green Box" Easy Mode on Canon cameras ignore all manual settings; the actual "A" or Auto mode does allow manual gain control, but shutter and aperture would still be auto, so you don't really know what exposure it is trying to get to or exactly how. Maybe Green Box vs Auto is where the confusion lies, because it sure looks like the Canon was very much gained up. It looks like the Canon achieved a much brighter image than the cleaner, but very much darker Sony clip. Since the final results differ by several stops in their final exposure, the Auto mode on the two cameras obviously arrived at such different endpoints that unfortunately it is pretty meaningless to compare these clips. For such a test to have validity, you first have to either set each camera manually to default/neutral settings, or optimized manual settings. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

November 2nd, 2006, 07:50 PM	#2
Holly Rognan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Coalville America Posts: 244	You should have put them on similiar settings, not auto. The auto mode obviously gained up the canon more than the sony. The Sony is noticable less grainy, because the gain isn't as high. At 0db, it sure did exhibit a fair amount of noise, but it looks that it was significantly lighter as well. I bet that if you matched them as far as exposure is concerned they would be more similiar.

November 2nd, 2006, 07:52 PM	#3
Doug Bennett Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 260	on my machine the canon is a lot brighter. But it would be better to test without the zooming. I think Holly may be right about auto mode (on the canon anyway) messing with gain even if you leave it set at 0.

November 2nd, 2006, 08:00 PM	#4
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	Also, are those Standard def files? Shot in SD or HD? The grai will be much worse in SD, and also, ify ou down converted SD to HD, the grain will intensify. I dont see that this is an accurate test, not according to the Night clip shot in the taxi on 0db gain...

November 2nd, 2006, 08:22 PM	#9
Holly Rognan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Coalville America Posts: 244	For those that may seem a little worried, don't be, these tests are far from a standardized test. It is interesting that anyone would even take them time to do a test and put it on auto. Who uses auto anyway, not to mention for an objective test? I am utterly convinced that gain was used. I have never seen grainer footage from a camcorder that is fully open with 0db.

November 2nd, 2006, 08:24 PM	#10
Holly Rognan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Coalville America Posts: 244	Is there anyway for you to do another test with lowlight, and manually open the iris and turn the gain off. Screw auto, it doesn't do the cam justice.

November 2nd, 2006, 08:35 PM	#11
Brent Graham Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 222	For a lowlight test, I suggest Kaku's footage... This was not a test: Both in auto Non Controlled lighting??! (are you kidding me?! it's a light test!) HD camera used as SD? Motion/Zooming shouldn't be necessary and only distracts from test If it's important to you, I'd suggest re-doing the test making sure to keep everything locked down, cameras, gain, and lighting. So far I'm extremely pleased with mine, seems to have great night sensitivity. We all appreciate your work and intentions, but tests need to be controlled to carry weight on these boards, otherwise people just bicker.

November 2nd, 2006, 08:39 PM	#12
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	Not to threadjack... Brent, how would say objectively the light light performance is?

November 2nd, 2006, 08:42 PM	#13
Jay Stebbins Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Nantucket MA Posts: 82	a few minutes at dusk can be huge difference...

November 2nd, 2006, 09:51 PM	#15
Jerry Gordon Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Leicester, nc Posts: 86	From an amateur that would of course use auto most of the time to start with...this would matter to me..my Sony VX2100 is better as far as noise in auto... BUT, if the the gain was also set to auto would that make it a better picture, less noise.....full auto? I have yet to learn about gain, so if I get it I would need auto for a bit. Also was this SD or HD footage? thanks Jerry PS, I thought I had learned in digital SLR's that the more pixels(they are smaller then), that you crammed on a sensor, then you can expect noisy pics, could that be the case here?