First Round FX vs. A1

Ash Greyson · November 3rd, 2006, 01:08 PM

The point has been beaten to death here but if you are not a skilled operator, then you should probably look at another camera. The Canon cameras offer a wide range of looks, adjustments, etc. that are almost unparalled in the class. They are not point and shoot cameras. Sony does a better job in their auto modes but there are far less options in the manual modes making it MUCH easier for their auto modes to adjust. On Sony's VERY high end cameras like the F900, the image out of the "box" is very flat, milky, with pastel colors.

Like the XLH and XL2, there are an abundance of adjustments to help with low light, gain, etc. Coring, NR, setup level, master pedestal, etc. etc. all can help mask noise and help with low light. The auto mode will not engage any of these.

Bottom line, the Canon is capable of images the Sony simply cannot re-create, the reverse is not true...

ash =o)

Jason Strongfield · November 3rd, 2006, 01:19 PM

Jerry,

No problem, everybody has to start somewhere. Welcome to the hobby, I can tell you this this is an awesome hobby ! It is relatively easy to comprehend but impossible to master (as film is art). Before long, you would want a stabilizer, a mixer, recorder, matte boxes, 35mm adapter ...etc.

Welcome aboard ! let us know if we can help in any way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Gordon

I understand Meryem.
But as i am amateur, just like with my DSLR's, I shoot auto out of the box for a time until I have time to learn the camera and what it does and learn about the different settings and how they affect the image...I shot auto with the DSLR for 6 mos, on things that I definitely did not want to miss or screw up, and in between worked with the different things until I knew what Tv and Av were and how to use them and so forth. There is nothing wrong with using a camera or corder in the auto mode until you are comfortable with it and have learned all the ins and outs. It has taken me 4 years to understand and fully appreciate and understand almost everything about the DSLR's, but in the meantime I shot auto on shots that were there and I wanted to make sure they were right and not take a chance on working on trying to set image settings that I had not become familiar enough with. Same with the camcorder. I am new at it totally from a manual settings viewpoint, so until I get it down I will use auto mode on those need to get it right scenes. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that or admitting that I don't know anything yet about manual settings on a camcorder. I never oncetried manual settings on my Vx in 3 years, I am ashamed to say as I spent more time on the DSLR learning it. I am no pro. But I was wanting to see how it did in full auto, because I will be using full auto while I learn the ins and outs of adjusting the image settings and so forth.
Jerry

Daniel Boswell · November 3rd, 2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

The point has been beaten to death here but if you are not a skilled operator, then you should probably look at another camera.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77795

Michael Y Wong · November 3rd, 2006, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Boswell

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77795

Daniel, I checked out rest of your gallery (only saw the demo last time). Your work is unbelievable imo and gives videographers who are getting into the business a goal to work for. BRAVO!

Daniel Boswell · November 3rd, 2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Y Wong

Daniel, I checked out rest of your gallery (only saw the demo last time). Your work is unbelievable imo and gives videographers who are getting into the business a goal to work for. BRAVO!

Thanks Michael. Those edits on my site are mostly done onsite the day off and shown at the reception. (ie Same Day Edits or SDEs)

Meryem Ersoz · November 3rd, 2006, 03:49 PM

jerry, i understand where you are coming from...but i simply wouldn't call these comparisons "tests" because that's misleading.

i think it is fine to post "auto" footage of a camera, i did it myself when i bought an FX-1 and it arrived in the mail minutes before i took it on a trip into the desert, where i had no time to familiarize myself with the camera. but i just wouldn't call it a test, that's my main beef. "auto" really only shows one of the things that *can* be done with a camera, not what *can't* be done....i wouldn't draw any conclusions about the camera's quality on that basis, which is the initial grounds of the discussion...

Jerry Gordon · November 3rd, 2006, 05:36 PM

Thanks Jason, much appreciated...I started with the Optura 100, then the vx2100 but never took time to learn the manual aspects..Now that i have the still camera down mostly I can spend time on video manual operations, I hope and hope they correlate in many ways so that the learning curve is not so steep.

Meryem, thanks again....i can understand what you are saying. My biggest question for the original poster was he said that all was auto but the gain was manually set to 0db. and my curiousity was what would it look like with it all, the gain also in auto, if that makes sense.

I meant to mention also, something i did in another post, coming from the stil digital camera side, there is a highly regarded program Neat Image that helps decrease the noise in images. I think that they now have a video version of that software, they have been around awhile and you can even make profiles for diff cameras and iso's and situations, so would imagine the video version would do the same.
I think they have a trial version you can try.
It would be nice to see these clips run thru a noise decreaser program like neat image and see what it does to it...it is new I think so i havent even tried it for my vx footage. but if anyone wants to give it a shot www.neatimage.com I haven't read a lot about the video version so don't know if it is limited to sd or both hd and sd.
Jerry

Jerry Gordon · November 3rd, 2006, 05:39 PM

Is it possible or has anyone compared Katu's settings and so forth to Daniel's settings on his clips. Maybe before condemning Daniel, we could do that and find a clue there of why the difference. Maybe Katu was not auto but in the manual mode? just a thought
jerry

Tom Roper · November 3rd, 2006, 06:13 PM

Kaku posted his settings, go back and reread.

My recollection is that most or all of his night time clips had zero gain.

Pete Bauer · November 3rd, 2006, 06:14 PM

Nobody is condemning anybody.

Daniel's clips were done in Auto mode, and that's why many folks have simply pointed out that that introduces many unknowns into the equation. That does put significant bounds on what judgments you can reasonably make about the camera's low light performance.

Here's the link to the post on Kaku's night highway shots, with settings:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....29&postcount=1

All were at 0 Gain, factory default on the custom presets, and specified shutter, aperture, and frame rate.

Ash Greyson · November 3rd, 2006, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Boswell

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77795

I was not aiming anything at you... my comment is that a skilled operator would not use the camera in auto mode as it does not give the best picture. I saw this go on for years in the XL2 versus DVX debates where in almost EVERY SINGLE CASE, the XL2 was being operated by a sub-par operator.

Also, please note, that you can be great at framing, directing, even DPing and not be a great camera op. Every good singer needs a good engineer to get the most out of his voice.

ash =o)

Chris Hurd · November 3rd, 2006, 08:53 PM

Okay folks... this has gone on long enough. Time to put it to bed. Thread closed.

November 3rd, 2006, 06:14 PM	#40
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Nobody is condemning anybody. Daniel's clips were done in Auto mode, and that's why many folks have simply pointed out that that introduces many unknowns into the equation. That does put significant bounds on what judgments you can reasonably make about the camera's low light performance. Here's the link to the post on Kaku's night highway shots, with settings: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....29&postcount=1 All were at 0 Gain, factory default on the custom presets, and specified shutter, aperture, and frame rate. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

November 3rd, 2006, 08:53 PM	#42
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Okay folks... this has gone on long enough. Time to put it to bed. Thread closed. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 3rd, 2006, 01:08 PM	#31
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	The point has been beaten to death here but if you are not a skilled operator, then you should probably look at another camera. The Canon cameras offer a wide range of looks, adjustments, etc. that are almost unparalled in the class. They are not point and shoot cameras. Sony does a better job in their auto modes but there are far less options in the manual modes making it MUCH easier for their auto modes to adjust. On Sony's VERY high end cameras like the F900, the image out of the "box" is very flat, milky, with pastel colors. Like the XLH and XL2, there are an abundance of adjustments to help with low light, gain, etc. Coring, NR, setup level, master pedestal, etc. etc. all can help mask noise and help with low light. The auto mode will not engage any of these. Bottom line, the Canon is capable of images the Sony simply cannot re-create, the reverse is not true... ash =o)

November 3rd, 2006, 03:49 PM	#36
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	jerry, i understand where you are coming from...but i simply wouldn't call these comparisons "tests" because that's misleading. i think it is fine to post "auto" footage of a camera, i did it myself when i bought an FX-1 and it arrived in the mail minutes before i took it on a trip into the desert, where i had no time to familiarize myself with the camera. but i just wouldn't call it a test, that's my main beef. "auto" really only shows one of the things that can be done with a camera, not what can't be done....i wouldn't draw any conclusions about the camera's quality on that basis, which is the initial grounds of the discussion...

November 3rd, 2006, 05:36 PM	#37
Jerry Gordon Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Leicester, nc Posts: 86	Thanks Jason, much appreciated...I started with the Optura 100, then the vx2100 but never took time to learn the manual aspects..Now that i have the still camera down mostly I can spend time on video manual operations, I hope and hope they correlate in many ways so that the learning curve is not so steep. Meryem, thanks again....i can understand what you are saying. My biggest question for the original poster was he said that all was auto but the gain was manually set to 0db. and my curiousity was what would it look like with it all, the gain also in auto, if that makes sense. I meant to mention also, something i did in another post, coming from the stil digital camera side, there is a highly regarded program Neat Image that helps decrease the noise in images. I think that they now have a video version of that software, they have been around awhile and you can even make profiles for diff cameras and iso's and situations, so would imagine the video version would do the same. I think they have a trial version you can try. It would be nice to see these clips run thru a noise decreaser program like neat image and see what it does to it...it is new I think so i havent even tried it for my vx footage. but if anyone wants to give it a shot www.neatimage.com I haven't read a lot about the video version so don't know if it is limited to sd or both hd and sd. Jerry

November 3rd, 2006, 05:39 PM	#38
Jerry Gordon Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Leicester, nc Posts: 86	Is it possible or has anyone compared Katu's settings and so forth to Daniel's settings on his clips. Maybe before condemning Daniel, we could do that and find a clue there of why the difference. Maybe Katu was not auto but in the manual mode? just a thought jerry

November 3rd, 2006, 06:13 PM	#39
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Kaku posted his settings, go back and reread. My recollection is that most or all of his night time clips had zero gain.