Advantage to SDI capture? was: Couple of questions

Gene Crucean · October 19th, 2006, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

I'm sure that Focus Enhancements would be the first to inform you that there is no such thing as a "really cheap" FireStore, but yes, you can purchase an upgrade for the FS-4 or FS-4 Pro in order to make it HDV compatible. Cost of the upgrade is $299.

True but...

If you take this one... http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation for 759 plus the 299 = $1058. Compared to $1349 for this http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search or $1899 for this http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search.

Am I being cheap? Or am I being a smart buyer? You decide ;)

Chris Hurd · October 19th, 2006, 02:12 PM

Sorry but you're comparing apples, oranges and Mackinaw peaches, which isn't a valid comparison at all. Your first link is the basic FireStore FS-4, which combined with the HDV upgrade turns it into a FireStore FS-4 HD costing total of $1058. But that's *not* the same thing as your second and third links.

The second link is the FireStore FS-4 Pro HD, which costs about $300 more than the FS-4 HD because it has an additional set of features that aren't available on the FS-4 HD such as time lapse recording, a larger cache buffer, etc. It doesn't matter if you buy the FS-4 or the more expensive FS-4 Pro. The cost to upgrade either one to add HD capability is going to be just the same as if you had simply bought the HD-capable models in the first place.

The third link you gave is for the FireStore FS-100, not an FS-4. This is a different model altogether and is compatible only with Panasonic P2 DVCPRO HD camcorders -- it won't work with the Canon XH series for HD recording. While the FS-4 HD and FS-4 Pro HD FireStore models record 25mbps HDV format video, the FS-100 records 100mbps DVCPRO HD. That's why it's more expensive than the others. Hope this helps,

Gene Crucean · October 19th, 2006, 03:59 PM

Sometimes I like comparing apples, oranges and peaches ;)

Just kiddin ya Chris. Thanks for the info.

Jack Jenkins · October 19th, 2006, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

The live signal from the camera head (non-tape playback signal) is uncompressed analog from the A1. It can be captured with the appropriate hardware, and at least with the XL-H1, the signal is virtually the same as SDI.

Wow, this is semi earth shattering news here. But how would a person capture this analog gold spewing freely from the component out port?

Jay Stebbins · October 19th, 2006, 09:33 PM

"Wow, this is semi earth shattering news here. But how would a person capture this analog gold spewing freely from the component out port?"

Actually I am pretty happy with this news. I don't need genlock... But something tells me there will still be a catch, where the SDI has something the analog does not, that I would like... I am guessing, and hoping someone who actually knows can answer this question.

I believe the addition of an analog-to-digital converter is needed between the camera and the capture card. I am also hoping that at some point the expresscard 34 slots in the side of the new MacBook Pros will eventually hold a card that will allow the connection of the capture card and the sata raid needed to capture 8 bit uncompressed or DVCPRo 1080i. In order to capture these codecs in the field.

Not that I know HDV will not do what I need. I will find out soon enough. But at least I don't have to worry that I bought the wrong camera later. The analog out just made the decision of which camera easier for me.

Barlow Elton · October 19th, 2006, 10:45 PM

I've captured both live analog and live SDI and they're basically the same. (Kona LH has HD component inputs) I still think you'd be better off getting an analog HD to HD-SDI converter, and capture SDI this way. You can have much longer cable runs via BNC cables and SDI.

Chris Hurd · October 19th, 2006, 10:51 PM

And don't forget that component video output is just that... video only... so you'll have to run audio separately, and there's two more cables for you. The big advantage of SDI is, everything goes through one single cable. Video, Audio, TimeCode, the works.

Barlow Elton · October 19th, 2006, 10:58 PM

XH-G1 SDI, that is--big BIG convenience that we don't have with the XL-H1...but at least we have timecode I/O to go dual system easily.

Robert Sanders · October 20th, 2006, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jenkins

Wow, this is semi earth shattering news here. But how would a person capture this analog gold spewing freely from the component out port?

Actually, that would "digital" gold spewing freely.

You can capture that gold via the Wafian HR-1 recorder.

Jack Jenkins · October 21st, 2006, 01:44 PM

Thats cool to know but at $17000 the Wafian HR-1 seems to be made of gold. yikes.

...the solution is simple: 2 tape transports on the camera. Load up 2 tapes for simultaneous recording (one tape each field) and viola! enough room for uncomressed (i think) ...ok maybe 3 tape transports (one tape for each color).........

Jim Feldspar · October 21st, 2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

Actually, that would "digital" gold spewing freely.

You can capture that gold via the Wafian HR-1 recorder.

In the above quote you're correcting (I presume) a previous post
about "analog" component out from the A1.

Is it definitely digital? Is it definitely HD? What kind?

Is there ANY other way to capture it than an almost $20K recorder?

Jim Feldspar · October 21st, 2006, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Stebbins

"Wow, this is semi earth shattering news here. But how would a person capture this analog gold spewing freely from the component out port?"

Actually I am pretty happy with this news. I don't need genlock... But something tells me there will still be a catch, where the SDI has something the analog does not, that I would like... I am guessing, and hoping someone who actually knows can answer this question.

I believe the addition of an analog-to-digital converter is needed between the camera and the capture card. I am also hoping that at some point the expresscard 34 slots in the side of the new MacBook Pros will eventually hold a card that will allow the connection of the capture card and the sata raid needed to capture 8 bit uncompressed or DVCPRo 1080i. In order to capture these codecs in the field.

Not that I know HDV will not do what I need. I will find out soon enough. But at least I don't have to worry that I bought the wrong camera later. The analog out just made the decision of which camera easier for me.

Why would having analog or digital or whatever it is component out
be so important in making your decision?

I want to buy a camera and I really don't know. Thanks.

Jay Stebbins · October 21st, 2006, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Feldspar

Why would having analog or digital or whatever it is component out
be so important in making your decision?

Because I know what I am going to shoot over the next year. (I will be shooting landscape and architecture for DVD w/ future proof HD-DVD), I am unsure of what these cameras and codecs will provide in natural light, where lighting can only be controlled to a small degree. Granted I will use the natural light to my advantage as I do in photography. I am unsure of the abilities and limitations of each camera and codec. Especially because most of the clips displayed are shot with controlled lighting or studio. Disjecta's work with the XLH1 is what brought me here.

I am less concerned with the ability of the physical camera but the HDV codec. And only then during very complex images. Right now I know of 8 different scenes I want to shoot that are very complex in detail and movement. It would be a total of about two minutes of footage. By this time next year that number could be 10 minutes. 10 minutes of what "might" be muddled by codec or "Epic" through clarity.

Is the G1 worth the extra $3000 to me for the SDI, that I am not positive whether I need or not in the first place? No, not really, not for me. I do not need the genlock, or sound and unsure of the timecode. Something tells me I do not need the timecode for my project, it can be applied later.

But what the componet out on the A1 does offer is security. If I find out the HDV is overwhelmed with the very complex images, I will have the ability with a little effort and more money to use the same camera to get the job done. I really don't want to find out this spring I bought the wrong camera trying to save three grand. I can apply that extra money towards a sick tripod, crane, redrock, mattebox and ND grads... Maybe I can get a set of lights to fill in the foreground detail during sunrise and set, so things look more like the eye see them. The more I read and learn the more ideas I have.

I have a dream...
Jay

Mathieu Kassovitz · October 21st, 2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

FireWire is limited to a maximum throughput of just 400Mbps (or 800Mbps if it's FireWire 800). Remember, uncompressed is about 1.5Gbps, so there's no way FireWire can accomodate that.

Apart HD-SDI (uncompressed or not, it isn't the point) as well HDV capture, is there any other way to record or capture 1080/24p or 25p footage, let's say DVCPROHD or JPEG2000 or Cineform RAW (less than 400Mbps) via firewire to a laptop? Timecode and audio embedded? (Aside the Canon's 24f or 25f and the 25 Mbps?)

Jay Stebbins · October 21st, 2006, 10:21 PM

You cant get the data stream coming out of the camera to fit through the firewire. The SDI or analog stream remains at 1.4 Gbps until it is processed by a capture card or software. Kinda like trying to get the water that goes through a firehose, through a garden hose...

In fact the only laptops that can ingest this 1.4 Gbps data-stream, have a Expresscard slot, like the new MacBook Pros. However the card required to go in the expresscard slot is still in development.

Ingesting is just the first challenge...

The second challenge is a hard drive to capture all the data. The hard drive on the laptop is going to be busy converting the 1.4Gbps data-stream to a more usable codec, cineform, DVCPROHD 780 or 1080i. A second drive will be needed to collect all your footage. I don't think that drive can be a firewire drive. I am not sure of the requirements of cineform. You will need a SATA raid drive. This will be able to be connected as well to the same Expresscard as the capture card.

SDI is much more manageable in the studio connected to a true workstation. SDI capture on a laptop is definitely bleeding edge... But soon I think it will be possible.

*note... I am a total newbie putting this puzzle together. I might be wrong on some of this.

Jay

October 19th, 2006, 02:12 PM	#32
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Sorry but you're comparing apples, oranges and Mackinaw peaches, which isn't a valid comparison at all. Your first link is the basic FireStore FS-4, which combined with the HDV upgrade turns it into a FireStore FS-4 HD costing total of $1058. But that's not the same thing as your second and third links. The second link is the FireStore FS-4 Pro HD, which costs about $300 more than the FS-4 HD because it has an additional set of features that aren't available on the FS-4 HD such as time lapse recording, a larger cache buffer, etc. It doesn't matter if you buy the FS-4 or the more expensive FS-4 Pro. The cost to upgrade either one to add HD capability is going to be just the same as if you had simply bought the HD-capable models in the first place. The third link you gave is for the FireStore FS-100, not an FS-4. This is a different model altogether and is compatible only with Panasonic P2 DVCPRO HD camcorders -- it won't work with the Canon XH series for HD recording. While the FS-4 HD and FS-4 Pro HD FireStore models record 25mbps HDV format video, the FS-100 records 100mbps DVCPRO HD. That's why it's more expensive than the others. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 19th, 2006, 10:51 PM	#37
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	And don't forget that component video output is just that... video only... so you'll have to run audio separately, and there's two more cables for you. The big advantage of SDI is, everything goes through one single cable. Video, Audio, TimeCode, the works. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 19th, 2006, 03:59 PM	#33
Gene Crucean Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 295	Sometimes I like comparing apples, oranges and peaches ;) Just kiddin ya Chris. Thanks for the info.

October 19th, 2006, 09:33 PM	#35
Jay Stebbins Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Nantucket MA Posts: 82	"Wow, this is semi earth shattering news here. But how would a person capture this analog gold spewing freely from the component out port?" Actually I am pretty happy with this news. I don't need genlock... But something tells me there will still be a catch, where the SDI has something the analog does not, that I would like... I am guessing, and hoping someone who actually knows can answer this question. I believe the addition of an analog-to-digital converter is needed between the camera and the capture card. I am also hoping that at some point the expresscard 34 slots in the side of the new MacBook Pros will eventually hold a card that will allow the connection of the capture card and the sata raid needed to capture 8 bit uncompressed or DVCPRo 1080i. In order to capture these codecs in the field. Not that I know HDV will not do what I need. I will find out soon enough. But at least I don't have to worry that I bought the wrong camera later. The analog out just made the decision of which camera easier for me.

October 19th, 2006, 10:45 PM	#36
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	I've captured both live analog and live SDI and they're basically the same. (Kona LH has HD component inputs) I still think you'd be better off getting an analog HD to HD-SDI converter, and capture SDI this way. You can have much longer cable runs via BNC cables and SDI.

October 19th, 2006, 10:58 PM	#38
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	XH-G1 SDI, that is--big BIG convenience that we don't have with the XL-H1...but at least we have timecode I/O to go dual system easily.

October 21st, 2006, 01:44 PM	#40
Jack Jenkins Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 122	Thats cool to know but at $17000 the Wafian HR-1 seems to be made of gold. yikes. ...the solution is simple: 2 tape transports on the camera. Load up 2 tapes for simultaneous recording (one tape each field) and viola! enough room for uncomressed (i think) ...ok maybe 3 tape transports (one tape for each color).........

October 21st, 2006, 10:21 PM	#45
Jay Stebbins Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Nantucket MA Posts: 82	You cant get the data stream coming out of the camera to fit through the firewire. The SDI or analog stream remains at 1.4 Gbps until it is processed by a capture card or software. Kinda like trying to get the water that goes through a firehose, through a garden hose... In fact the only laptops that can ingest this 1.4 Gbps data-stream, have a Expresscard slot, like the new MacBook Pros. However the card required to go in the expresscard slot is still in development. Ingesting is just the first challenge... The second challenge is a hard drive to capture all the data. The hard drive on the laptop is going to be busy converting the 1.4Gbps data-stream to a more usable codec, cineform, DVCPROHD 780 or 1080i. A second drive will be needed to collect all your footage. I don't think that drive can be a firewire drive. I am not sure of the requirements of cineform. You will need a SATA raid drive. This will be able to be connected as well to the same Expresscard as the capture card. SDI is much more manageable in the studio connected to a true workstation. SDI capture on a laptop is definitely bleeding edge... But soon I think it will be possible. *note... I am a total newbie putting this puzzle together. I might be wrong on some of this. Jay