lux rating of the XH-A1/G1 at DVinfo.net

Piotr Wozniacki · October 14th, 2006, 03:18 PM

What is the Canon lux rating system, and is it compatible with Sony's? I mean, within the Sony range, the 7 lux of HC1/A1 vs the 4 lux of the V1 vs the 3 lux of the FX1/Z1 is pretty consistent (and translates to reality well, with the exception of course for the V1 which hasn't really been tested yet). The XH-A1 specs show some "0.4 lux (manual mode)" - how does it compare (in theory at least)? Kaku Ito's night taxi ride clips are quite impressive - naturally dark, I'd say, with not much noise.

Stu Holmes · October 15th, 2006, 12:04 PM

THe 0.4lux is only 0.4lux as i beleive (by memory) they stated in brackets the shutterspeed used and it was very slow ! So you can do that with any camera to get a "better lux rating". The Sony ones are quoted at default shutter speed of 1/60th NTSC and 1/50th PAL. You have to use the same shutter speed for this lux rating to mean anything at all, and even then, across manufacturers, it's highly flaky as it's essentially a judgment call as to when an image degrades sufficiently for it to be called "unusable".

So I think to get a handle on this, you'll really have to do a back-to-back test in identical conditions etc. From what i've read, the Canons' look like they're going to be pretty good in lowlight.

Holly Rognan · October 15th, 2006, 09:45 PM

I too am interested in this. If there isn't anything concrete yet, does anyone know how well the XL-H1 fares against the XL2 in 60i for low light? I can't see, to find this info anywere on the net. Thanks in advance,

Chris

Matthew Nayman · October 16th, 2006, 05:19 PM

I personally find the XL2, with 1/48 shutter in lowlight, 0 gain, all the way open, is not great. I know it's asking alot, but I hope the XHA1 sensor's are simply better equipped for low light. That taxi footage is encouraging :)

I am not against gain, but the brighter the image is to start with, the less you need.

Rafael Lopes · October 18th, 2006, 05:32 AM

If they are using the XL H1 the low light performance should be equivalent.

Kaku Ito · October 19th, 2006, 08:41 AM

As a former user of FX1, A1J and HVX200 (which is the least comparable), both H1 and G1 I tested were so easy to shoot in the dark.

Michael Liebergot · October 19th, 2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaku Ito

As a former user of FX1, A1J and HVX200 (which is the least comparable), both H1 and G1 I tested were so easy to shoot in the dark.

How did the gain hold up?
Did it hold the blacks well when the gain would be up to let's say 12-15db?

That's one thing I noticed about the FX1/Z1 cameras, as you could go up to 18db and the camera would still hold the blacks, and not look real grainy like my VX2100/PD170 would.

In other words the cameras gave a fair representation of wht was being shot. If the lighting was dim and the room was dark so was the video, but the blacks held up well without being grainy when gain was introduced.

Floris van Eck · October 23rd, 2006, 06:20 AM

I just talked with a representative of one of the best if not the best UK video stores to talk about my upcoming HD camera purchase. I asked him his opinion about the XL-H1 and if he had hands-on experience with the new Canon camera's. He has tried them out and likes them very well. He also said that they perform better in low-light then the Sony HVR-Z1E. Which is quite good, and confirms what we have seen in Kaku's night footage. From what he has seen, the image also is of the same high quality of that of the XL-H1.

So looks like we have two low-light champions coming up.

Holly Rognan · October 23rd, 2006, 06:42 AM

Sounds great, can't wait to get my twitchy hands on one.

Dave Lammey · October 23rd, 2006, 08:51 AM

If any of you early purchasers of the A1 or G1 can do a direct comparison to the FX1/Z1 in lowlight conditions, that would be greatly appreciated!

Daniel Boswell · October 23rd, 2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Lammey

If any of you early purchasers of the A1 or G1 can do a direct comparison to the FX1/Z1 in lowlight conditions, that would be greatly appreciated!

I will be able to. I have a couple FX1s here and hopefull will be getting my A1 soon.

Floris van Eck · October 23rd, 2006, 09:26 PM

Oh, he also said that viewfinder is not as good as the one on the XL-H1. I did not ask how it was compared to the one on the HVR-Z1.

Dave Lammey · October 24th, 2006, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Boswell

I will be able to. I have a couple FX1s here and hopefull will be getting my A1 soon.

Daniel: great, thanks ... it will also be interesting to see if the canon's footage can be matched to the Fx1 in post. If I recall correctly, the GL2's footage didn't match up very well to the VX2000/PD150 ...

Jerry Gordon · October 28th, 2006, 09:51 PM

I have a question.

I usually use mostly auto mode, on my VX2100.

It does good in low ligted rooms and so forth.

I know that most of you use manual settings. But is there anything showing or describing the low light performance of the H/A-1 in auto modes?

thank you
Jerry

Pete Bauer · October 29th, 2006, 04:47 AM

Auto Mode continually changes not only shutter and aperture, but as required will increase the gain (and therefore change the video noise level) to get what the camera judges is an appropriate exposure. So measuring low-light capability in Auto Mode is really a "desperate case" assessment and a moving target. This also brings up the difficulty with lux specs ... each manufacturer, if not each different camera, uses its own methodology to make a lux claim. Also, exposure is affected by custom presets such as gamma curve, setup, and pedestal. So it is really tough to get true apples to apples comparisions. The nearest fair approximation to compare different cameras is either to optimize each cameras settings or set each camera to default, and then do a side-by-side shoot.

Low light comparisions have been one of the most common requests lately. I don't have any other manufacturer cameras, but since I've been too lazy to put my old cameras up for sale, I have a GL2, an XL2, and XL H1 that I'll do a quick-n-dirty side-by-side test on. We don't know, but presume that since the XH cameras use the same sensor as the XL H1 (although different processing algorithms), their sensitivity ought to be in the same ballpark.

BTW, I've noticed that one of the XL H1 modes (I think 30F, but I can't remember for sure right now) has about 1/2 to 1 stop less exposure than the other modes. Again, don't know that will be true with the XH cameras, but probably so.

October 14th, 2006, 03:18 PM	#1
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	lux rating of the XH-A1/G1 What is the Canon lux rating system, and is it compatible with Sony's? I mean, within the Sony range, the 7 lux of HC1/A1 vs the 4 lux of the V1 vs the 3 lux of the FX1/Z1 is pretty consistent (and translates to reality well, with the exception of course for the V1 which hasn't really been tested yet). The XH-A1 specs show some "0.4 lux (manual mode)" - how does it compare (in theory at least)? Kaku Ito's night taxi ride clips are quite impressive - naturally dark, I'd say, with not much noise. Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki; October 15th, 2006 at 05:00 AM.

October 15th, 2006, 09:45 PM	#3
Holly Rognan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Coalville America Posts: 244	Interested I too am interested in this. If there isn't anything concrete yet, does anyone know how well the XL-H1 fares against the XL2 in 60i for low light? I can't see, to find this info anywere on the net. Thanks in advance, Chris

October 29th, 2006, 04:47 AM	#15
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Auto Mode continually changes not only shutter and aperture, but as required will increase the gain (and therefore change the video noise level) to get what the camera judges is an appropriate exposure. So measuring low-light capability in Auto Mode is really a "desperate case" assessment and a moving target. This also brings up the difficulty with lux specs ... each manufacturer, if not each different camera, uses its own methodology to make a lux claim. Also, exposure is affected by custom presets such as gamma curve, setup, and pedestal. So it is really tough to get true apples to apples comparisions. The nearest fair approximation to compare different cameras is either to optimize each cameras settings or set each camera to default, and then do a side-by-side shoot. Low light comparisions have been one of the most common requests lately. I don't have any other manufacturer cameras, but since I've been too lazy to put my old cameras up for sale, I have a GL2, an XL2, and XL H1 that I'll do a quick-n-dirty side-by-side test on. We don't know, but presume that since the XH cameras use the same sensor as the XL H1 (although different processing algorithms), their sensitivity ought to be in the same ballpark. BTW, I've noticed that one of the XL H1 modes (I think 30F, but I can't remember for sure right now) has about 1/2 to 1 stop less exposure than the other modes. Again, don't know that will be true with the XH cameras, but probably so. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

October 15th, 2006, 12:04 PM	#2
Stu Holmes Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 844	THe 0.4lux is only 0.4lux as i beleive (by memory) they stated in brackets the shutterspeed used and it was very slow ! So you can do that with any camera to get a "better lux rating". The Sony ones are quoted at default shutter speed of 1/60th NTSC and 1/50th PAL. You have to use the same shutter speed for this lux rating to mean anything at all, and even then, across manufacturers, it's highly flaky as it's essentially a judgment call as to when an image degrades sufficiently for it to be called "unusable". So I think to get a handle on this, you'll really have to do a back-to-back test in identical conditions etc. From what i've read, the Canons' look like they're going to be pretty good in lowlight.

October 16th, 2006, 05:19 PM	#4
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	I personally find the XL2, with 1/48 shutter in lowlight, 0 gain, all the way open, is not great. I know it's asking alot, but I hope the XHA1 sensor's are simply better equipped for low light. That taxi footage is encouraging :) I am not against gain, but the brighter the image is to start with, the less you need.

October 18th, 2006, 05:32 AM	#5
Rafael Lopes Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rio de Janeiro Posts: 1,240	If they are using the XL H1 the low light performance should be equivalent.

October 19th, 2006, 08:41 AM	#6
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	As a former user of FX1, A1J and HVX200 (which is the least comparable), both H1 and G1 I tested were so easy to shoot in the dark.

October 23rd, 2006, 06:20 AM	#8
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	I just talked with a representative of one of the best if not the best UK video stores to talk about my upcoming HD camera purchase. I asked him his opinion about the XL-H1 and if he had hands-on experience with the new Canon camera's. He has tried them out and likes them very well. He also said that they perform better in low-light then the Sony HVR-Z1E. Which is quite good, and confirms what we have seen in Kaku's night footage. From what he has seen, the image also is of the same high quality of that of the XL-H1. So looks like we have two low-light champions coming up.

October 23rd, 2006, 06:42 AM	#9
Holly Rognan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Coalville America Posts: 244	Sounds great, can't wait to get my twitchy hands on one.

October 23rd, 2006, 08:51 AM	#10
Dave Lammey Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Simsbury, CT Posts: 247	If any of you early purchasers of the A1 or G1 can do a direct comparison to the FX1/Z1 in lowlight conditions, that would be greatly appreciated!

October 23rd, 2006, 09:26 PM	#12
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	Oh, he also said that viewfinder is not as good as the one on the XL-H1. I did not ask how it was compared to the one on the HVR-Z1.

October 28th, 2006, 09:51 PM	#14
Jerry Gordon Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Leicester, nc Posts: 86	I have a question. I usually use mostly auto mode, on my VX2100. It does good in low ligted rooms and so forth. I know that most of you use manual settings. But is there anything showing or describing the low light performance of the H/A-1 in auto modes? thank you Jerry