Download seven mixed XH G1 clips provided by Kaku Ito

Philip Williams · October 9th, 2006, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Macletis

<snip>
For now, I'll keep working with the Panasonic (that makes me money), and playing with the HV10 (that cost me little) and looks absolutely killer for 95% of its usage.

Well shoot, if you already own an HVX then I'd definitely agree you may as well stick with that. That's a great camcorder!

Tony Tremble · October 10th, 2006, 01:02 AM

On the whole I thought the XH-G1 clips were excellent, superior to the H1 in fact.

Most of the CA has been reduced to well within acceptable limits. It will sell like hotcakes...

There is a very simple reason why the HVX does not show CA as much, it simply does not have the resolving power to see it in most cases. Fine camera it might be but it certainly isn't HD by any fair and reasonable measure. It's a SD camera that records in a HD format.

CA is a fact of life and one gets too hung up over it one could realy miss out on the many positive aspects of these fantastic cameras.

It's wort pointing out that a highly optimised lens that exhibits no CA whatsoever can suffer from very ugly bokeh. In my view that would be worse! Physics gives with one hand and takes with the other!

TT

Tom Roper · October 10th, 2006, 07:41 AM

Taking off the rose colored glasses for a moment and speaking objectively, and after reviewing most of the clips, my conclusion about Kaku's XH-G1 clips is that they are indistinguishable from the clips he shot with the XL-H1 last year at this time. Identical!

I went back and forth between the baygamma clip from last year and the current panning clip taken from almost the exact spot. The weather and time of year almost exactly alike as well.

Viewed on a 50 inch DLP HDTV monitor, both cams produce an identical picture. From the picture quality I can't see where either one has an edge on the other, or even spot a difference.

So do I buy it? I'm definitely thinking hard about it. My Z1U produces stunning footage as well. I like everything about it. Being certain I would upgrade to either the V1U or XH-A1, I offered the Z1U (at a great price) to another DVINFO.NET member who accepted. If that deal goes through, I'm about to be without my beloved Sony HDV cam again.

I didn't just look at the XH-G1 and V1U however. I played back a bunch of short clips from the Z1U taken by Douglas Spotted Eagle and arrived at the same conclusion I've had all year, that there's not a dimes worth of difference in image quality between any of these fine HDV cams to most people who would view the footage. The Z1U/FX1 is fully capable of holding its own with any of the newest cams. Part of that comes from working closely with the cam you learn its sweet spots, make stunning footage.

Looking at it objectively, I wouldn't recommend the new Sony or Canon to anyone that already purchased into the format with any existing brand or model. What you will get is what you make of it. If you're in, you can make it happen with what you have. That's a bit of a somber reality since I may be on the verge of concluding a fond relationship with the Z1U.

It's easy to get caught up in the hype, something new, something better. I'm an example of that. But looking forward, the XH-G1 is solid, no risk. I can't find any significant flaws.

Floris van Eck · October 10th, 2006, 07:51 AM

The hardest thing will be to wait. I am in the position to choose freely. I sold my HDR-HC1E last week with its accessoires. So now I do not have any investment/money in accessoires from one company. But that does not make it any easier. I am really teared apart at this moment. I like Sony, I like Canon. But each camera has some major weaknesses/downfalls. The Canon has some significant CA... but the resolution etc. seems to be on par with the XL-H1. And for $4000, that is not bad. And I wonder how many ordinary people will really notice the CA in rolling footage. The V1 on the other hand looks promising so far, and Sony still has some time for development. The Canon however will arrive within a month so I suppose production started / will start soon. So I doubt that there will be major improvements compared to the beta units.

I will just wait untill there is more information / footage of both cameras.

Piotr Wozniacki · October 10th, 2006, 07:56 AM

Floris, I'm in exactly the same situation! I also sold my HC1E; I'm also considering one of the three: Z1, V1 or a Canon XH-A1. Realy tough choise, isn't it?

Philip Williams · October 10th, 2006, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

<snip>Looking at it objectively, I wouldn't recommend the new Sony or Canon to anyone that already purchased into the format with any existing brand or model. What you will get is what you make of it. If you're in, you can make it happen with what you have.<snip>

Wise words Tom, and I think very much in line with the spirit of creativity that Chris tries to achieve with this forum. The arguing over the "best" camcorders and "best" formats that goes on sometimes.. its just crazy. I'm sure I've probably engaged in that at one point or another but what's the point?

"My camcorder has far superior purple fringing over your red and green aberations". "Oh yeah, my camcorder resolves an extra 100 tv lines of resolution!". Blah blah.. ridiculous. In the meantime indies are still getting into festivals with DVX100 movies that focus on - oh my - content.

www.philipwilliams.com

Tony Tremble · October 10th, 2006, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Taking off the rose colored glasses for a moment and speaking objectively, and after reviewing most of the clips, my conclusion about Kaku's XH-G1 clips is that they are indistinguishable from the clips he shot with the XL-H1 last year at this time. Identical!

Yeah, if you discount the much wider FOV and much reduced CA...

In some of Kaku Ito's mountain bike footage from the H1 it was "fringe city" but in the XH clips the fringing is negligable and the image appears sharper as a result. The CA is now down to a level that only measurebators will see by pouring over footage.

Canon have obviously made great strides in improving upon the H1 and are in the process of delivering two cameras that live up to the promise of the H1.

TT

Floris van Eck · October 10th, 2006, 08:18 AM

This discussion is really great so far. People here really have a good understanding of what is important and what is not. And I totally agree that it is all about what you do with it. Technical details are nice, but you do not need to drown yourself in them. Any of these camera's can produce better images then the camera's with which award winning movies and documentaries were produced. So we should stop analysing images under a microscope.

But I still have to choose one of these camera's. The choice is though, but I will make a decision soon. All three camera's have obivious qualities. And I want to start shooting again as soon as possible. So I will definately not be waiting on new camera announcements. It's a Canon XH-A1 or Sony HVR-Z1/V1. Period.

At this moment, I am leaning towards the Canon XH-A1. But I really would like to see a bit more footage of the Sony V1.

Philip Williams · October 10th, 2006, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floris van Eck

<snip>So I will definately not be waiting on new camera announcements. It's a Canon XH-A1 or Sony HVR-Z1/V1. Period.

At this moment, I am leaning towards the Canon XH-A1. But I really would like to see a bit more footage of the Sony V1.

Don't forget to factor in your favorite editing software, as there are varying levels of support for some of the shooting modes that these cams provide (well OK, the Z1 is pretty much 100% supported everywhere I think).

Marty Hudzik · October 10th, 2006, 08:34 AM

In the city shot of people walking the CA in the upper left corner is terrible IMHO. There are too many variables to claim that the CA is better/worse that the H1 just from these 30+ samples. I can honestly say that my personal use of the H1 has never shown anything as significant as in the trees in the top left corner of the city walking clip.

So from my point of view (an H1 owner) the CA seems worse to me. I can't argure about the FOV being wider.....I love that. But I think the jury is still out on declaring the A1 having a superior, less CA image. Only time will tell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

In some of Kaku Ito's mountain bike footage from the H1 it was "fringe city" but in the XH clips the fringing is negligable and the image appears sharper as a result. The CA is now down to a level that only measurebators will see by pouring over footage.
TT

Floris van Eck · October 10th, 2006, 08:35 AM

That's a good one! I already thought of that, but sometimes I forget it again. I believe the problems are especially in special modes... like 24F/24P. The 60i/50i will be supported in every NLE I suppose. And the 24F/24P will be supported by all NLE's after a few months. Avid will likely take a little bit longer, as usual. But I am planning to shoot most of my footage in 50i and then convert that to 25p with Cineform (If I go for the Adobe Production Studio).

Tony Tremble · October 10th, 2006, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip Williams

Wise words Tom, and I think very much in line with the spirit of creativity that Chris tries to achieve with this forum. The arguing over the "best" camcorders and "best" formats that goes on sometimes.. its just crazy. I'm sure I've probably engaged in that at one point or another but what's the point?

"My camcorder has far superior purple fringing over your red and green aberations". "Oh yeah, my camcorder resolves an extra 100 tv lines of resolution!". Blah blah.. ridiculous. In the meantime indies are still getting into festivals with DVX100 movies that focus on - oh my - content.

www.philipwilliams.com

Everything you said is indeed correct but don't forget that there is a huge number of people like me who have not bought into the HDV thing. I certainly haven't been impressed with any of the cameras up and till now. Z1, HVX200, JVC and H1 have all had serious reasons not to buy from my point of view.

The two new Canons and the new Sonys show some critical improvements that have made me look again at the format. The improvements may not be enough for a current owner to jump ship but to someone who has not invested in a camera they do look very attractive.

Yes, people are pouring over footage and grabs but isn't that the whole point? Thanks to the generosity of those involved in capturing and hosting the footage prospective camera purchases can be made with a great deal more information than was ever possible before. Don't fall into the trap by thinking people who are analysing and commenting on the clips have forgotten about the importance of content.

In life, whenever I purchase something, no matter what it is, I try to make sure I purchase the "best" relative to my budget and needs every time. Don't you?

TT

Floris van Eck · October 10th, 2006, 08:56 AM

Yes. The same goes for me. Of course I want to get the best I can get. But at this moment, there is not a perfect HD/HDV camera. There is also not a near-perfect HD/HDV camera... they are all like good, but not very good. I think it can take a few more years for those extra-ordinary camera's to arrive. But untill then, I have to work with something else. My choices are a great/near-perfect DV camera or a good HDV camera.

The HDV workflow is different from the DV workflow. Therefore, I think it is waste of time to start working in DV when HD/HDV is the future. In three years, I expect to upgrade to another camera.... which will come much closer.

Waiting is definately not an option. I want to start shooting again. So I have to pick one of the camera's that is available / will be available this year. While the format matures, I can get familair with the whole HD/HDV workflow/system.

So although you are right, I am still going to buy a camera this year.

Bill Pryor · October 10th, 2006, 08:56 AM

For me, the only thing negative I can come up with regarding the Canon HDV cameras is that no deck supports the 24F mode. And, that's probably the major thing the V1 has over the Canon. While Sony has done some amazing work in figuring out how to squeeze more resolution and dynamic range out of smaller chips, my feeling on the whole is that I'd rather have bigger chips than smaller ones, most things being equal. That's a personal bias and not necessarily rooted in any comparison testing. The V1 is looking pretty good, but I think there are tradeoffs in going to smaller chips. I could be wrong; it wasn't all that long ago I didn't think you could get decent quality out of a 1/3" chip camera, and look how far they've come.

In terms of a deck, I guess a person could buy that Canon single chip consumer HDV camera and use it as a deck. I seem to remember Chris posting something about the fact that it will play the 24F mode. Is that correct?

A personal project I'm working on may lead me into a camera purchase very soon, because I really need a small camera for this stuff. After using the Z1 for several days, I was pretty much sold on it. However, when the XH A1 was announced, I began to switch allegiance. Why not have the 24F mode in a smaller, presumably lighter, camera for a thousand bucks less? If it looks as good in person as it does on paper...well, it may become the best deal on the market.

As far as I'm concerned, all these cameras are about equal, and they all have good points and bad points. They all provide better quality than anyone could have expected a few years ago.

Chris Hurd · October 10th, 2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

the only thing negative I can come up with regarding the Canon HDV cameras is that no deck supports the 24F mode.

Sure, there's a deck that supports the 24F mode. It's called the Canon HV10 and it's so advanced that it doubles as a camcorder. Not many decks have a lens and a mic, but this one does. Check out our HV10 forum for more details. And yes it supports 30F and 24F playback as well as four-channel audio.

October 10th, 2006, 01:02 AM	#62
Tony Tremble Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 451	On the whole I thought the XH-G1 clips were excellent, superior to the H1 in fact. Most of the CA has been reduced to well within acceptable limits. It will sell like hotcakes... There is a very simple reason why the HVX does not show CA as much, it simply does not have the resolving power to see it in most cases. Fine camera it might be but it certainly isn't HD by any fair and reasonable measure. It's a SD camera that records in a HD format. CA is a fact of life and one gets too hung up over it one could realy miss out on the many positive aspects of these fantastic cameras. It's wort pointing out that a highly optimised lens that exhibits no CA whatsoever can suffer from very ugly bokeh. In my view that would be worse! Physics gives with one hand and takes with the other! TT

October 10th, 2006, 07:41 AM	#63
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Taking off the rose colored glasses for a moment and speaking objectively, and after reviewing most of the clips, my conclusion about Kaku's XH-G1 clips is that they are indistinguishable from the clips he shot with the XL-H1 last year at this time. Identical! I went back and forth between the baygamma clip from last year and the current panning clip taken from almost the exact spot. The weather and time of year almost exactly alike as well. Viewed on a 50 inch DLP HDTV monitor, both cams produce an identical picture. From the picture quality I can't see where either one has an edge on the other, or even spot a difference. So do I buy it? I'm definitely thinking hard about it. My Z1U produces stunning footage as well. I like everything about it. Being certain I would upgrade to either the V1U or XH-A1, I offered the Z1U (at a great price) to another DVINFO.NET member who accepted. If that deal goes through, I'm about to be without my beloved Sony HDV cam again. I didn't just look at the XH-G1 and V1U however. I played back a bunch of short clips from the Z1U taken by Douglas Spotted Eagle and arrived at the same conclusion I've had all year, that there's not a dimes worth of difference in image quality between any of these fine HDV cams to most people who would view the footage. The Z1U/FX1 is fully capable of holding its own with any of the newest cams. Part of that comes from working closely with the cam you learn its sweet spots, make stunning footage. Looking at it objectively, I wouldn't recommend the new Sony or Canon to anyone that already purchased into the format with any existing brand or model. What you will get is what you make of it. If you're in, you can make it happen with what you have. That's a bit of a somber reality since I may be on the verge of concluding a fond relationship with the Z1U. It's easy to get caught up in the hype, something new, something better. I'm an example of that. But looking forward, the XH-G1 is solid, no risk. I can't find any significant flaws.

October 10th, 2006, 07:51 AM	#64
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	The hardest thing will be to wait. I am in the position to choose freely. I sold my HDR-HC1E last week with its accessoires. So now I do not have any investment/money in accessoires from one company. But that does not make it any easier. I am really teared apart at this moment. I like Sony, I like Canon. But each camera has some major weaknesses/downfalls. The Canon has some significant CA... but the resolution etc. seems to be on par with the XL-H1. And for $4000, that is not bad. And I wonder how many ordinary people will really notice the CA in rolling footage. The V1 on the other hand looks promising so far, and Sony still has some time for development. The Canon however will arrive within a month so I suppose production started / will start soon. So I doubt that there will be major improvements compared to the beta units. I will just wait untill there is more information / footage of both cameras.

October 10th, 2006, 07:56 AM	#65
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Floris, I'm in exactly the same situation! I also sold my HC1E; I'm also considering one of the three: Z1, V1 or a Canon XH-A1. Realy tough choise, isn't it?

October 10th, 2006, 08:18 AM	#68
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	This discussion is really great so far. People here really have a good understanding of what is important and what is not. And I totally agree that it is all about what you do with it. Technical details are nice, but you do not need to drown yourself in them. Any of these camera's can produce better images then the camera's with which award winning movies and documentaries were produced. So we should stop analysing images under a microscope. But I still have to choose one of these camera's. The choice is though, but I will make a decision soon. All three camera's have obivious qualities. And I want to start shooting again as soon as possible. So I will definately not be waiting on new camera announcements. It's a Canon XH-A1 or Sony HVR-Z1/V1. Period. At this moment, I am leaning towards the Canon XH-A1. But I really would like to see a bit more footage of the Sony V1.

October 10th, 2006, 08:35 AM	#71
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	That's a good one! I already thought of that, but sometimes I forget it again. I believe the problems are especially in special modes... like 24F/24P. The 60i/50i will be supported in every NLE I suppose. And the 24F/24P will be supported by all NLE's after a few months. Avid will likely take a little bit longer, as usual. But I am planning to shoot most of my footage in 50i and then convert that to 25p with Cineform (If I go for the Adobe Production Studio).

October 10th, 2006, 08:56 AM	#73
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	Yes. The same goes for me. Of course I want to get the best I can get. But at this moment, there is not a perfect HD/HDV camera. There is also not a near-perfect HD/HDV camera... they are all like good, but not very good. I think it can take a few more years for those extra-ordinary camera's to arrive. But untill then, I have to work with something else. My choices are a great/near-perfect DV camera or a good HDV camera. The HDV workflow is different from the DV workflow. Therefore, I think it is waste of time to start working in DV when HD/HDV is the future. In three years, I expect to upgrade to another camera.... which will come much closer. Waiting is definately not an option. I want to start shooting again. So I have to pick one of the camera's that is available / will be available this year. While the format matures, I can get familair with the whole HD/HDV workflow/system. So although you are right, I am still going to buy a camera this year.

October 10th, 2006, 08:56 AM	#74
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	For me, the only thing negative I can come up with regarding the Canon HDV cameras is that no deck supports the 24F mode. And, that's probably the major thing the V1 has over the Canon. While Sony has done some amazing work in figuring out how to squeeze more resolution and dynamic range out of smaller chips, my feeling on the whole is that I'd rather have bigger chips than smaller ones, most things being equal. That's a personal bias and not necessarily rooted in any comparison testing. The V1 is looking pretty good, but I think there are tradeoffs in going to smaller chips. I could be wrong; it wasn't all that long ago I didn't think you could get decent quality out of a 1/3" chip camera, and look how far they've come. In terms of a deck, I guess a person could buy that Canon single chip consumer HDV camera and use it as a deck. I seem to remember Chris posting something about the fact that it will play the 24F mode. Is that correct? A personal project I'm working on may lead me into a camera purchase very soon, because I really need a small camera for this stuff. After using the Z1 for several days, I was pretty much sold on it. However, when the XH A1 was announced, I began to switch allegiance. Why not have the 24F mode in a smaller, presumably lighter, camera for a thousand bucks less? If it looks as good in person as it does on paper...well, it may become the best deal on the market. As far as I'm concerned, all these cameras are about equal, and they all have good points and bad points. They all provide better quality than anyone could have expected a few years ago.