The benifits of 24F over 24p for better resolution (my theory) at DVinfo.net

Tyson Persall · August 16th, 2006, 12:13 PM

Tell me if Im correct about:
My assumption of why Canon has the 24F mode instead of 24p...

In 24F mode, it looks like 24p but is actually shooting interlaed video at 1080i resolution of 1920x1080. And this produces a better picture than the alternative of true progressive 24p at 720p resolution of _(whatever 720p is)_? (like the JVC cam). Canon did this b/c they wanted to get most resolution they could out of a "film looking" footage. The alternative was 720p and that would have been not as many pixels. And also, the option of doing 1080p was not possible with HDV tape. (yes, no?)

So when editing in Adobe Premiere pro 2 you choose 1080i mode? -and hopefully it looks progressive on an HDTV moniotor? -Becasue I can defiitly tell the dif in 24p footage from 60i footage in SD.

Nate Weaver · August 16th, 2006, 12:56 PM

Tyson, there's a few things you're confused on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyson Persall

In 24F mode, it looks like 24p but is actually shooting interlaed video at 1080i resolution of 1920x1080. And this produces a better picture than the alternative of true progressive 24p at 720p resolution of _(whatever 720p is)_? (like the JVC cam).

The Canon does have slightly better resolution than the JVC, but it's "despite of" it's use of interlaced chips to get progressive frames, rather than "because of". Making progressive frames out from a chip that delivers interlace reduces resolution, not increases resolution. This is demonstrated by the charts we shot at the Texas HD roundup in both modes. Despite the XLH-1's use of DSP to get progressive frames (which by nature has to throw away resolution to get there, it still comes out slightly on top. (debatable in 24p mode, I know guys :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyson Persall

Canon did this b/c they wanted to get most resolution they could out of a "film looking" footage. The alternative was 720p and that would have been not as many pixels. And also, the option of doing 1080p was not possible with HDV tape. (yes, no?)

I think many here like to separate the idea of "film look" from pure resolution. Or put another way, many would agree that pure resolution is not a component of what makes something look like film (especially when many here are producing for an SD end product).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyson Persall

And also, the option of doing 1080p was not possible with HDV tape. (yes, no?)

Yes, it's possible. Both 1080 HDV and 720 HDV have the ability to record 24p without wasted bandwidth using repeat flags in the stream. Don't confuse interlace/progressive chips with interlace/progressive recording, however.

Ash Greyson · August 16th, 2006, 09:08 PM

The Canon is aimed at broadcast people and in broadcast 60i reigns. Progressive CCDs do not do a very good job of creating interlaced footage. The HVX interlaced stuff looks pretty poor. The 24F is merely a benefit to those who choose to apply that look to their footage and the Canon does it better than any other interlaced camera ever...

ash =o)

Eric Hansen · August 25th, 2006, 11:09 AM

Alright, we've used the Firestore FS-C and when recording in 24F mode in .m2t files (the only way you can record in HD mode) all you have to do is export the .m2t files out of mpeg streamclip with a 23.976 framerate and it works great in FCP... on the XL-H1 that is...

Eric Hansen

Pete Bauer · August 25th, 2006, 01:02 PM

Eric, thanks for the report. F-mode with the Firestores has been a point of confusion for some months (since NAB, at least). For us PC users, I'd ASSUME that if it worked in FCP which as yet doesn't have native F-mode support, it should also work fine in Vegas and PPro...but of course would love to have actual user verification from our DVi membership!

Thanks again.

Dean Digamon · September 8th, 2006, 09:06 PM

gyea id want to know how well that would work out in FCP as well

Stuart Mannion · September 22nd, 2006, 05:12 PM

Going for a cinematic look, how does the Canons 24F stand up to true 24P? If the 24F is true progressive at the expense of a bit of resolution how does the A1 stand up to say the JVC GY-HD110 at the end of the day?

In my experience (with the DVX100a) the true progressive mode seems to let in more light in as well as the movement difference. How does 24F compair in this regard?

Nate Weaver · September 22nd, 2006, 07:41 PM

24F is for all intents and purposes, the best fake of 24p you'll see.

It's so good, in fact, that except for the slight loss in vertical resolution, it is. Rendering of motion is exactly like a true 24p camera.

Pete Bauer · September 22nd, 2006, 09:25 PM

See also:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=74964

August 16th, 2006, 12:13 PM	#1
Tyson Persall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: North Hollywood, Atlanta Posts: 437	The benifits of 24F over 24p for better resolution (my theory) Tell me if Im correct about: My assumption of why Canon has the 24F mode instead of 24p... In 24F mode, it looks like 24p but is actually shooting interlaed video at 1080i resolution of 1920x1080. And this produces a better picture than the alternative of true progressive 24p at 720p resolution of _(whatever 720p is)_? (like the JVC cam). Canon did this b/c they wanted to get most resolution they could out of a "film looking" footage. The alternative was 720p and that would have been not as many pixels. And also, the option of doing 1080p was not possible with HDV tape. (yes, no?) So when editing in Adobe Premiere pro 2 you choose 1080i mode? -and hopefully it looks progressive on an HDTV moniotor? -Becasue I can defiitly tell the dif in 24p footage from 60i footage in SD. __________________ Tyson X

August 25th, 2006, 01:02 PM	#5
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Eric, thanks for the report. F-mode with the Firestores has been a point of confusion for some months (since NAB, at least). For us PC users, I'd ASSUME that if it worked in FCP which as yet doesn't have native F-mode support, it should also work fine in Vegas and PPro...but of course would love to have actual user verification from our DVi membership! Thanks again. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

September 22nd, 2006, 05:12 PM	#7
Stuart Mannion New Boot Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 10	24f Vs 24P Going for a cinematic look, how does the Canons 24F stand up to true 24P? If the 24F is true progressive at the expense of a bit of resolution how does the A1 stand up to say the JVC GY-HD110 at the end of the day? In my experience (with the DVX100a) the true progressive mode seems to let in more light in as well as the movement difference. How does 24F compair in this regard?

September 22nd, 2006, 07:41 PM	#8
Nate Weaver Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,100	24F is for all intents and purposes, the best fake of 24p you'll see. It's so good, in fact, that except for the slight loss in vertical resolution, it is. Rendering of motion is exactly like a true 24p camera. __________________ My Work: nateweaver.net

September 22nd, 2006, 09:25 PM	#9
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	See also: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=74964 __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

August 16th, 2006, 09:08 PM	#3
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	The Canon is aimed at broadcast people and in broadcast 60i reigns. Progressive CCDs do not do a very good job of creating interlaced footage. The HVX interlaced stuff looks pretty poor. The 24F is merely a benefit to those who choose to apply that look to their footage and the Canon does it better than any other interlaced camera ever... ash =o)

August 25th, 2006, 11:09 AM	#4
Eric Hansen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Eagle Mountain, Utah Posts: 97	Alright, we've used the Firestore FS-C and when recording in 24F mode in .m2t files (the only way you can record in HD mode) all you have to do is export the .m2t files out of mpeg streamclip with a 23.976 framerate and it works great in FCP... on the XL-H1 that is... Eric Hansen

September 8th, 2006, 09:06 PM	#6
Dean Digamon Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 41	gyea id want to know how well that would work out in FCP as well