A question about 24F/30F at DVinfo.net

Matthew Nayman · July 27th, 2006, 05:59 AM

I havent used the XLH1 (own an XL2) and am curious about how editing works on the 24F formats?

I currently use Adobe Premeire 2.0 and have a sony HDVM51U deck. Does 24F need special presents? Or can someone just capture at 60i like the 2:3 pulldown on the XL2?

Chris Hurd · July 27th, 2006, 07:27 AM

Hi Matthew,

The NLE most be able to handle Canon Frame mode specifically.

Canopus Edius accepts Canon Frame mode, right out of the box.

Adobe Premiere Pro requires a free upgrade patch, download from their site.

Final Cut Pro, Sony Vegas and Avid are not yet compatible, but they're working on it.

Pete Bauer · July 27th, 2006, 07:54 AM

Matthew,

Since you have PPro 2, you can download very small preset files for the Canon HDV cameras (as well as preset for other HD cameras, incidentally) and copy the files to the appropriate presets folders in a couple minutes. With those presets, PPro can then convert the captured file extension to mpeg in real time and you can edit native HDV. A lot of PPro users choose to buy the $500 AspectHD plugin from Cineform because it transcodes to AVI (about 3 times the file size of the mpeg but intraframe compression with a high performance wavelet codec) and has preview acceleration that makes editing a bit smoother. The things I can think of off the top of my head that are different from miniDV workflow, and these apply both to native HDV and Cineform:
- Export to tape in 24F is not currently possible
- Cannot use slow motion buttons in the capture window (they are greyed out)
- Cannot preview with the capture window during capture (you have to use your camera viewfinder during capture to see where you are in the tape).

The 24F is captured at a true 24fps to PPro (not pulled down) as that is how it is recorded on the tape, and of course then you edit on a 24fps timeline, just as you would with pulled-down 24p from the XL2. But that also means that NO current tape deck can play the F-mode tapes from Canon HDV cameras. You must use your camera as a deck.

Matthew Nayman · July 27th, 2006, 04:34 PM

My sony deck can capture true 24p from my XL2 so it cant do 24f?

Lame

Mathieu Ghekiere · July 27th, 2006, 05:09 PM

It would probably do SD 24f from the Canon but not HD 24f...
Not sure about this, though.

Chris Hurd · July 27th, 2006, 05:26 PM

It ain't "lame" if you understand how your equipment works. I'm not sure how anybody can have the expectation that Canon's HD Frame mode would be backward-compatible with a VTR produced by the competition. It's not as if Sony could have predicted Canon's Frame mode... remember, their HDV VTRs came *before* the XL H1. It's hard to be compatible with something that didn't even exist at the time.

Kevin Wild · July 27th, 2006, 06:06 PM

True, Chris, but what are we at now? 8 months without a deck or NLE support (FCP)? Seems like they could maybe do a little of the ground work BEFORE the product is released so we don't sit and wait so long. We'd better get something soon...it is getting a bit on the long end.

Matthew Nayman · July 27th, 2006, 06:16 PM

Sorry Chris,

Wasn't trying to be negative. I am excited about this cam, and love canon, but am dismayed to find that my new sony deck will be utterly useless in conjunction (A well spent $3000!).

I understand that Sony and canon are competitors, and I don't own much Sony equipment, but the deck was a good price and I dont see any Canon decks...

Basically, what I think is "Lame" is that Canon's 24F format is still so unsupported, and that they didnt pick a more conventional approach like progressive frames, or a 24p signal imbedded in a 60i timeline like the XL2.

But you did hit the nail on the head. I am still coming to terms with understanding HD equipment and technology, and feel vastly undereducated compared to my SD knowledge, so please, feel free to educate when possible :)

Matt

Lee Alford · July 31st, 2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Final Cut Pro, Sony Vegas and Avid are not yet compatible, but they're working on it.

From what i understnad sony vegas works fine with 24f. was the first of them all to do so.

lee

Chris Hurd · July 31st, 2006, 01:06 PM

My apologies for that error. Shows you what I know about Vegas. Thanks for the correction,

July 27th, 2006, 05:59 AM	#1
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	A question about 24F/30F I havent used the XLH1 (own an XL2) and am curious about how editing works on the 24F formats? I currently use Adobe Premeire 2.0 and have a sony HDVM51U deck. Does 24F need special presents? Or can someone just capture at 60i like the 2:3 pulldown on the XL2?

July 27th, 2006, 07:27 AM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Hi Matthew, The NLE most be able to handle Canon Frame mode specifically. Canopus Edius accepts Canon Frame mode, right out of the box. Adobe Premiere Pro requires a free upgrade patch, download from their site. Final Cut Pro, Sony Vegas and Avid are not yet compatible, but they're working on it. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 27th, 2006, 07:54 AM	#3
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Matthew, Since you have PPro 2, you can download very small preset files for the Canon HDV cameras (as well as preset for other HD cameras, incidentally) and copy the files to the appropriate presets folders in a couple minutes. With those presets, PPro can then convert the captured file extension to mpeg in real time and you can edit native HDV. A lot of PPro users choose to buy the $500 AspectHD plugin from Cineform because it transcodes to AVI (about 3 times the file size of the mpeg but intraframe compression with a high performance wavelet codec) and has preview acceleration that makes editing a bit smoother. The things I can think of off the top of my head that are different from miniDV workflow, and these apply both to native HDV and Cineform: - Export to tape in 24F is not currently possible - Cannot use slow motion buttons in the capture window (they are greyed out) - Cannot preview with the capture window during capture (you have to use your camera viewfinder during capture to see where you are in the tape). The 24F is captured at a true 24fps to PPro (not pulled down) as that is how it is recorded on the tape, and of course then you edit on a 24fps timeline, just as you would with pulled-down 24p from the XL2. But that also means that NO current tape deck can play the F-mode tapes from Canon HDV cameras. You must use your camera as a deck. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

July 27th, 2006, 05:09 PM	#5
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	It would probably do SD 24f from the Canon but not HD 24f... Not sure about this, though. __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

July 27th, 2006, 05:26 PM	#6
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	It ain't "lame" if you understand how your equipment works. I'm not sure how anybody can have the expectation that Canon's HD Frame mode would be backward-compatible with a VTR produced by the competition. It's not as if Sony could have predicted Canon's Frame mode... remember, their HDV VTRs came before the XL H1. It's hard to be compatible with something that didn't even exist at the time. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 27th, 2006, 04:34 PM	#4
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	My sony deck can capture true 24p from my XL2 so it cant do 24f? Lame

July 27th, 2006, 06:06 PM	#7
Kevin Wild Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 540	True, Chris, but what are we at now? 8 months without a deck or NLE support (FCP)? Seems like they could maybe do a little of the ground work BEFORE the product is released so we don't sit and wait so long. We'd better get something soon...it is getting a bit on the long end.

July 27th, 2006, 06:16 PM	#8
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	Sorry Chris, Wasn't trying to be negative. I am excited about this cam, and love canon, but am dismayed to find that my new sony deck will be utterly useless in conjunction (A well spent $3000!). I understand that Sony and canon are competitors, and I don't own much Sony equipment, but the deck was a good price and I dont see any Canon decks... Basically, what I think is "Lame" is that Canon's 24F format is still so unsupported, and that they didnt pick a more conventional approach like progressive frames, or a 24p signal imbedded in a 60i timeline like the XL2. But you did hit the nail on the head. I am still coming to terms with understanding HD equipment and technology, and feel vastly undereducated compared to my SD knowledge, so please, feel free to educate when possible :) Matt

July 31st, 2006, 01:06 PM	#10
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	My apologies for that error. Shows you what I know about Vegas. Thanks for the correction, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!