Footage

Steve Roark · July 27th, 2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

We know that the CCD block is the same between the XL and XH, but the focal length of the 20x lenses is different. XL is 5.4 - 108mm. XH is 4.5 - 90mm.

Would bringing the lens elements closer to the CCD block account for a wider field of view?

Chris Hurd · July 27th, 2006, 07:58 AM

Well, according to the Canon Japan site, the 20x lenses on the XH cams have 16 elements in 11 groups. Checking on the 20x lens for the XL, it has 12 elements in 10 groups. So they're not the same lens, although it's easy to think they might be at first glance.

Steve Roark · July 27th, 2006, 08:11 AM

That's interesting. I wonder what prompted the extra 4 elements...in any case it sounds like Canon didn't cut corners on the XH lenses...if there's an Achilles heel, it doesn't look like its in the imaging portion of the camera. Maybe its in the 20 pound power supply...

Peter Ferling · July 27th, 2006, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Roark

... Maybe its in the 20 pound power supply...

Hmmm, could have used that as a counter-balance on the XLs, eh?

Brent Ethington · July 27th, 2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Well, according to the Canon Japan site, the 20x lenses on the XH cams have 16 elements in 11 groups. Checking on the 20x lens for the XL, it has 12 elements in 10 groups. So they're not the same lens, although it's easy to think they might be at first glance.

since the subject of lenses has come up, any chance that the lens on the XH will reduce the chromatic aberration that is evident in many of the XG-H1 footage samples that have been posted in the XG-H1 samples forum here?

the XH press release indicated that the same sensor and (mostly) electronics of the XG are used, so I figured that the XG-H1 sample footage would be the best reflection of what to expect from the XH, but the CA jumps out at you - at least up close on a computer monitor. unfortunately, it isn't limited to a clip or two from the same camera, but is evident in clips posted by different shooters. maybe it's not as visible from a typical viewing distance, but was kind of disappointing to see - especially since canon touts their lens quality.

I'll still probably order the XH A1, but am curious as to what the footage will reveal...

Chris Hurd · July 27th, 2006, 08:15 PM

Well to be fair, what you're seeing in a lot of XL H1 clips is not chromatic abberation at all. Instead, it's primarily an issue of reduced chroma bandwidth, which is a limitation of the format. For a better explanation, see A.J. deLange's excellent post located at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....5&postcount=40 as well as some other very good input in that particular thread.

I've also demonstrated how the proper use of Custom Presets can greatly decrease the impact of this issue; see my examples posted at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=72218 -- hope this helps,

Brent Ethington · July 27th, 2006, 09:42 PM

Chris - thanks for the links. I missed A.J.'s post in a search I did - very good read. will be interesting to see whether canon does anything with the electronics to try to minimize further, or whether the best solution is to change the presets as you've done. i guess we'll just have to wait for real footage to compare.

Kaku Ito · August 1st, 2006, 02:46 AM

my source said he will brong it as soon as he receives the demo unit, but I understand Canon U.S. made big complaint about the last (XLH1) posting action, so there's no garranty that I get my hands prior to the official release.

It is funny Canon U.S. complained about me when a lot of people here seemed to deciding to buy XLH1 according to my effort and the feedback of people here in the community. Maybe Chris can convince them.

Also, I will do a lot better job on A1 than how I did with H1.

Anyway, I was watching back the clips I shot with H1, after getting used to watching not as high res HVX200 images, H1 look stunning. So, the smaller but probably the same guts inside, A1 should be great for my use (night street shooting with MTB/BMX/Skateboard and the shooting in the mountain.

Kaku Ito · August 1st, 2006, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ferling

If the sensor/inner workings are the same as the H1 (maybe even improved), Then can we assume comparitive imagery to that of the H1? That is, is the results so close that you could intercut it?

My marketing instinct say's there has to be 'some' limitation. Maybe it's the lens? Don't know. If canon feels that it's worth risking to lose some H1 sales, but realize more profit overall?

Example the HC1/A1U intercuts with FX1\Z1U, but it's a noticeably softer image.

For the canon, If it's just a fixed vs. interchangeable lens...

Hmmmm, maybe after four beers I'll see this more clearly : )

By looking at their prices, me and the pro dealer person were guessing that Canon didn't hold it back for the quality.

Kaku Ito · August 1st, 2006, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ferling

I see your point Philip, it's not how close the image is to the H1 that is concerning, but it's how much better it is than the FX1.

I know H1 did a lot better in the dark than FX1 for sure.

Jonathan Mark · August 1st, 2006, 04:42 AM

Totally off topic but do you know any good camcorder store in tokyo. I will buy the A1 as soon is released. The store i usually check out is

http://www.tsukumo.co.jp/
http://www.shirakura.co.jp/
http://www.system5.jp

Do you know any better?

Kaku Ito · August 1st, 2006, 07:35 AM

I don't know if we were to discuss that here because of the forum policy. Why don't you email me.

Chris Hurd · August 1st, 2006, 07:43 AM

Our forum policy simply grants exclusivity to our site sponsors, all of whom are currently based in the U.S., so it won't bother me if you have a preferred dealer in Tokyo that you'd like to recommend. Thanks,

Kevin Shaw · August 1st, 2006, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Roark

If I was a betting man, I'd put some money on Sony announcing a Z1 replacement with h.264 before November of this year.

The Z1 has only been shipping for something like 18 months, and I gather is one of Sony's best-selling new cameras ever. If I were them I'd wait until at least next year to replace that with something else, and maybe even longer. Plus it would be nice if the Z2 were based on blue-laser recording, which I'm guessing isn't very affordable yet. So the Z2 can wait and needs to wait until it's realistic to do a complete overhaul, which may take a while. How about next November?

Quote:

Roark's Law: When you are finally able to assemble a computer powerful enough to ingest the latest video format, then the industry will adopt a new format.

Today's computers can barely handle HDV effectively, so it seems doubtful they'll be able to do much with AVC content in the near future. Again, next year makes more sense than this year on that point.

Since this is a discussion about Canon cameras, anyone care to guess when they'll ship an AVC-based model? I'm thinking around 2008-2009 or so...

Chris Hurd · August 1st, 2006, 08:15 AM

My guess is that Canon will ship an AVC model after everyone else does.

Look at your history: they were the last to get into DV, DVD and HDV camcorders.

July 27th, 2006, 07:58 AM	#17
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Well, according to the Canon Japan site, the 20x lenses on the XH cams have 16 elements in 11 groups. Checking on the 20x lens for the XL, it has 12 elements in 10 groups. So they're not the same lens, although it's easy to think they might be at first glance. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 27th, 2006, 08:15 PM	#21
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Well to be fair, what you're seeing in a lot of XL H1 clips is not chromatic abberation at all. Instead, it's primarily an issue of reduced chroma bandwidth, which is a limitation of the format. For a better explanation, see A.J. deLange's excellent post located at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....5&postcount=40 as well as some other very good input in that particular thread. I've also demonstrated how the proper use of Custom Presets can greatly decrease the impact of this issue; see my examples posted at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=72218 -- hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

August 1st, 2006, 07:43 AM	#28
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Our forum policy simply grants exclusivity to our site sponsors, all of whom are currently based in the U.S., so it won't bother me if you have a preferred dealer in Tokyo that you'd like to recommend. Thanks, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

August 1st, 2006, 08:15 AM	#30
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	My guess is that Canon will ship an AVC model after everyone else does. Look at your history: they were the last to get into DV, DVD and HDV camcorders. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 27th, 2006, 08:11 AM	#18
Steve Roark Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vilseck, Germany Posts: 89	That's interesting. I wonder what prompted the extra 4 elements...in any case it sounds like Canon didn't cut corners on the XH lenses...if there's an Achilles heel, it doesn't look like its in the imaging portion of the camera. Maybe its in the 20 pound power supply...

July 27th, 2006, 09:42 PM	#22
Brent Ethington Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: WA Posts: 180	Chris - thanks for the links. I missed A.J.'s post in a search I did - very good read. will be interesting to see whether canon does anything with the electronics to try to minimize further, or whether the best solution is to change the presets as you've done. i guess we'll just have to wait for real footage to compare.

August 1st, 2006, 02:46 AM	#23
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	my source said he will brong it as soon as he receives the demo unit, but I understand Canon U.S. made big complaint about the last (XLH1) posting action, so there's no garranty that I get my hands prior to the official release. It is funny Canon U.S. complained about me when a lot of people here seemed to deciding to buy XLH1 according to my effort and the feedback of people here in the community. Maybe Chris can convince them. Also, I will do a lot better job on A1 than how I did with H1. Anyway, I was watching back the clips I shot with H1, after getting used to watching not as high res HVX200 images, H1 look stunning. So, the smaller but probably the same guts inside, A1 should be great for my use (night street shooting with MTB/BMX/Skateboard and the shooting in the mountain.

August 1st, 2006, 04:42 AM	#26
Jonathan Mark Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 54	Totally off topic but do you know any good camcorder store in tokyo. I will buy the A1 as soon is released. The store i usually check out is http://www.tsukumo.co.jp/ http://www.shirakura.co.jp/ http://www.system5.jp Do you know any better?

August 1st, 2006, 07:35 AM	#27
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	I don't know if we were to discuss that here because of the forum policy. Why don't you email me.