Canon unveils the XHG1 and XHA1

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Evan C. King

Buddy, "that other thread" lists the prices these things sell for! There is no debating that, there is NOTHING to understand about cost, pricing or whatever because those are THE prices as sold by one of this site's sponsors, a store that moves many, many cameras.

The reason I don't want to contribute to it, where ever something is expensive has everything to do with costing, pricing, and including all the credible options, and where ever it is just plain low cost or not. It is not just what the manufacturers and retailers decide.

There is no super drug, A1 gets better latitude (one of the fundamentals of image quality) less over saturated colour (another thing that detracts from pro image quality) or better resolution, then some of the cameras listed, and the only thing that it really lacks, apart from one manual control, and level of usability of manual control, is it's sensitivity (left out progressive image, because it depends on the job style). A professional can use it quiet well.

It is true that normal one chip cameras are really inferior, because they use an inferior complimentary sensor filter instead. But, the A1 and HC1 use a RGB/Bayer filter (forget exactly which one) which are good enough for Cinema cameras, and professional still cameras, delivering color accuracy close to 3 chip, and not suffering too much in resolution, normally, then how can we say it suddenly that much less than 3 chip. Still all prosumer HD, still all recent, still all the realm of comparison. We are talking about companies upping the price of HD here, how can we, unless we compare what has been released before.

The HC1 is so close behind, and the JVC is just another prosumer camera.

If Canon could offer true full resolution 24/25 progressive then that would be the biggest thing for the Canon A1 (and one of the reasons I did not buy a Sony A1). But the pricing, please, for the baby cameras no more than $3K guys, actually, preferably, starting at under $2K street guys. And upping the price of top prosumer cameras, please no more than $5-6K, under 4K street preferably, unless you are going to give us a better codec with full manual lens/shutter/exposure controls.

Where ever prosumer, or baby prosumer, still prosumer.

[Pete Bauer]

Wayne, sorry I can't agree with you. Just a couple years ago, miniDV cameras of that form factor had MSRP's approaching $3000 US. You can make all the speculative technical apples-to-oranges analyses you want -- and seem to be very persistent in doing so -- but it won't change the fact that in today's marketplace, these cameras (including the XH's) are priced competitively. I think it is amazing that by year's end we will be able to buy a camera with 1.67MP chips, 20x L-glass, 24fps recorded to tape as 24fps, deep image control features, and a lot more for under $4000 US. Sure, I'd like to get one cheaper -- better yet, free! -- but that ain't reality. If you're one of the few who feel that none of these new relatively low cost HD cameras are worth their price, maybe you should shop for a Viper or something. But there is no point to trying every which way to argue that the manufacturers should halve their prices just because you wish it. Let's return to discussing the XH cameras themselves.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

If Canon could offer true full resolution 24/25 progressive then that would be the biggest thing for the Canon A1

No, it would not. You're trying to imply that somehow there is some big difference between progressive scan and Canon Frame mode. If you've actually seen it, then you'd know there's practically no discernible difference. Most folks that perpetuate the myth of "true" vs. "fake" progressive scan, have never looked at Frame mode. It pretty much *is* progressive scan, so, no this would not be the biggest thing for the Canon A1, because it's already in there, in the form of Canon Frame mode.

But the pricing, please, for the baby cameras no more than $3K guys, actually, preferably, starting at under $2K street guys.

The XH camcorders are not baby cameras. They're not that small. An Optura is a baby camera, and we havewn't seen one of these in HD yet, nor do we know at the moment what one would cost.

Where ever prosumer, or baby prosumer, still prosumer.

Argh, that ugly non-word again. I'm going to create a word filter in this forum's software, which will seek out and destroy all instances of that word. Professional is fine, consumer is fine, but "prosumer" is a term which is about to get banned around here.

[Dave Perry]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Argh, that ugly non-word again. I'm going to create a word filter in this forum's software, which will seek out and destroy all instances of that word. Professional is fine, consumer is fine, but "prosumer" is a term which is about to get banned around here.

You go Chris!

Fact is, the sub $10K cameras are not even close to being consumer cameras any way.

[Michael Liebergot]

Has anyone seen any mention as to the camcoders build? Is it plastic or magnesium body like the Sony's cameras?

Canon makes great optics, but seems so skimp on the housing, making it more plastic, as opposed to Sony's strong magnesium body's on their cameras.

[Boyd Ostroff]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Argh, that ugly non-word again. I'm going to create a word filter in this forum's software, which will seek out and destroy all instances of that word.

OK, I won't say it, but that word was actually coined in 1980 by Alvin Toffler to describe someone who is both a producer and consumer so it wasn't even originally intended to be used in the context we usually see it around here...

[Heath McKnight]

6 years ago, some guy around my age that worked with me at a TV station that did BetaSP (we were both editors though on weekends, I'd shoot some stringer stuff exclusively for them with the XL1) and he was always determined to undermine me everywhere I went with my XL1. I'd talk about my movie, shooting stuff, etc., all with the XL1, and he'd walk buy, interrupt and say, "Prosumer." It made him look foolish and irritated me.

One day, I shot some stuff for the TV station with the XL1, dubbed it to BetaSP and handed it to him to edit. He didn't say anything about the footage, so I asked if I shot it okay and he said yeah, looked good. I told him it was the XL1 and he flipped.

Never said "prosumer" again.

hwm

[Jeff Sayre]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Argh, that ugly non-word again. I'm going to create a word filter in this forum's software, which will seek out and destroy all instances of that word. Professional is fine, consumer is fine, but "prosumer" is a term which is about to get banned around here.

Thank you, Chris! I started a thread last summer, one week after I joined your great forum. The thread was entitled "The End of the Prosumer". We had some good discussion but the issue fizzled out after awhile. You can read it here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=45885

Is it time to resurrect this year-old thread? I suggest those of you who are fed up with the word "prosumer" read that thread and post to it if you're interested.

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Pete Bauer

Wayne, sorry I can't agree with you. Just a couple years ago, miniDV cameras of that form factor had MSRP's approaching $3000 US. You can make all the speculative technical apples-to-oranges analyses you want

Yes I agree, discussing the cameras rather than me, I was out of here a while back.

On the inaccuracies, I am comparing the rising price of fruit, not apples and oranges. You can pay the grocery what ever you like, but the only reality is that he charges a profit between what it is made and supplied for and what people are willing to pay. I really need to make a doco on that. And that is all it was about, all the other stuff was a side track from the issue. Sorry for my statements, their is always somebody trying to peddle unreal stuff to me. Effective logical argument is the only thing to do, but our species seem far to fallible to do it, but not to argue ;). Now I'd better quit and get out of here, as originally planned (I want my freedom....).

[Simon Wyndham]

Most folks that perpetuate the myth of "true" vs. "fake" progressive scan, have never looked at Frame mode. It pretty much *is* progressive scan

Agreed fully. I find it to be the same even with the old Canons. I used Frame mode all the time. And in fact whenever I asked clients which look they wanted to go with they always chose frame mode!

Simply, the human eye does not discern detail in that way. So any loss of resolution that frame mode may introduce really is not noticable.

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

No, it would not. You're trying to imply that somehow there is some big difference between progressive scan and Canon Frame mode. If you've

I was not trying to imply that, as I didn't know (and others didn't seem to) what they had, and progressive was desirable feature for me to buy, I was just inferring that they could/can if it wasn't already (after having rewritten it a number of times trying to find the right word).

Sorry about the baby stuff Chris, not meant that way, but bottom line of semi-professional camera ranges, in reference to the baby carrots still being carrots.

The other word is the de-facto standard terminology for crossover cameras often targeted at both high end consumers and low end professionals, often with features from both worlds. I fully support cameras with increased pro quality instead. And, I don't care if anybody tells me pro......, it is what you can do with it on a good day. In that way Canon has always been on top.

Good luck ;). Disconnecting/unsub, it is nearly 4 am.

[Michael Maier]

I love the way Canon works. They never make a fuss about non-working prototypes.
These cameras look very interesting if you want a tricked out fixed lens camera on a budget or if you need (for some odd reason) a compact camera with HD-SDI and Genlock. It seems it could be the end of Z1 sales too. Sony better come up with something new fast.

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

I'm not a fan of carrying exra stuff, but by using the HD-SDI and a device like the Bonsai drive you'd have a very portable way of recording 4:2:2 high def in difficult conditions.

I thought the Bonsai drive only recorded PAL/NTSC 4:2:2, not HD. I don't even see a HD-SDI option for it.

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

This is another big blow to the 720p format. We now have 8 1080i HDV cameras compared to the 3 720p HDV cameras. Those 3 720p cameras will be pretty much the same with just a few features added such as the HD200 and HD250. I have always been a huge fan of 720p but it is getting hard to stick with it since everything else seems to be going 1080i. Unless JVC comes out with some killer options for handheld 720p cameras I think I will have to kiss 720p goodbye.

The calling card for 720p is that it's the only progessive HDV format as of yet. If you want real progessive, 720p is the only way for now. With all the bells and whistles of the H1 and these two great new little cams, the most important factor, the video, is compromised when using 24f, which is the mode all indie filmmakers will use. Now for those that want only interlaced for TV work, then definitely go for a 1080i camera. But for film style production 24f is just not there yet. Besides there's only one of the 1080i that is a exchageable lens camera, which is a totally different ball game from fixed lens palm-cams, and as far as I know it(the XL-H1) doesn't record HD 60p or 50p to tape as the 720p HD200/HD250 does. So I think we can all hold back on that goodbye kiss for now.
I hope I haven’t opened a can of worms, but you brought it up :)

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Harris Porter

Is "jet black" the official color of every HDV camera out there? I'm not saying it doesn't look cool, I just wonder why Sony, JVC and Canon simultaneously dropped their grays and silvers when a new format came along.

What if I'm on a night shoot and I stumble and break my $7000 camera just because it's sooo stylish I can't even see it? That's what worries me.

My HD100 is not jet black, more like a charcoal. Is your jet black?