24F vs. 30F at DVinfo.net

Daniel Fessak · January 26th, 2009, 03:47 PM

Hello all...

What is the difference really between shooting in 24F vs. shooting in 30F, from a visual point of view?

John D. Bujnowski · January 26th, 2009, 10:46 PM

Somewhat less "motion judder" especially with panning. 24P is supported in BD disks, 30P is not.
While 24P has an interesting "look", it works best with slow, very fluid camera operation.
Imagine the mass of a large cine camera, and the hyper expensive camera dollies, that is the kind of precision that provides that format with the elegance that videographers crave.

Daniel Fessak · January 27th, 2009, 08:41 AM

I know about all the movement and slow motion issues, but just looking at something shot in 24f vs. 30f, what would give it away that one was shoot in either format? Just from a visual and not technical standpoint.

Brandon Freeman · January 27th, 2009, 04:55 PM

I think it comes down to the visual judder, as was explained above. That's about it. Video motion is smoother, film has enough of a step between each frame that it feels more like watching a collection of pictures strung together.

There's a fantasy show that comes on late at night where I live, very low budget, and I'm pretty confident its 30p, because the motion is just a little too smooth for my tastes.

Of course, if you shoot video at 24p with a 1/24th shutter, that also destroys (IMO) the "film judder" because the motion is so blurry that it seems smoother to me.

That's all I can think of.

Daniel Fessak · January 27th, 2009, 09:10 PM

I have something this weekend I am going to shoot and really want the film look of 24p, or 24f rather. You think that if I shoot in 30f that other than the motion issues being taken out of the equation, that I will not notice the difference? I will shoot some more test stuff tomorrow and see how it comes out.

See the reason I am asking it is if 24f and 30f both look the same, then why bother having 24f as a setting at all? Why would someone want to shoot in 30f rather than 24f knowing they will get the motion issues involved in it? Is that because of film transferring issues?

Jack Walker · January 27th, 2009, 10:18 PM

When you shoot 24f, set the camera for 2:3:3:2 pulldown. It looks better than 2:3 (2:3:2:3).

A good deal of the "judder" seen in 24f has more to do with pulldown and how the video is being displayed than with 24 frames per second.

However, both 30f and 24f will look different from 60i.

Will and Grace was shot in 30p. When they did a live shot, it was shot and broadcast in 60i. The illusion didn't work as well, and the actors didn't look as good. It looked more like a reality show and the sharp motion jumped out at you.

Action movies, dance movies and all the rest are shot at 24 fps, so it's not the motion that is the issue. How the camera moves, how it is focused and sometimes the greater depth of field of video all contribute to the "inferior" look of some 24p video.

24p may be becoming more popular than less popular. A couple of the major video websites are now showing video in 24p, where up to now they showed only 30p.

30p is a good choice if you want to eliminate pulldown issues and are delivering on DVD and the web. However, I personally prefer 24p. Recently I shot a dance show with the Canon XH-A1 and used 24f and it looks great. On the other hand, when I shot a dancer in rehearsal for a documentary, I used 60i. It worked well. I know a well known show promoter that shoots his production with a Canon XH-A1 using 24f--all high motion shows, and the tapes are used for the performers to evaluate their performances and as a record. He likes 24f.

Shoot some tests, then play them back the way your final product will be delivered. Make you decision based on that. And you can always change you mind next time.

Christopher Drews · January 27th, 2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Walker

When you shoot 24f, set the camera for 2:3:3:2 pulldown. It looks better than 2:3 (2:3:2:3).

Most people when they talk about 24f or 30f, they are speaking about the HV20/30 which doesn't allow a pulldown selection (you are stuck with 2:3:2:3) but if he has a XH-G1s he can select it. Also, sorry Jack, the image will not look better if he is stuck in 2:3:2:3 or 2:3:3:2. It is a format- not an indicator of image quality. If you gave me two clips one 24p and one 24pA - I'd make them look the same after removing the pulldown.

However, if you have the option, shooting in 2:3:3:2 (or 24p Advanced) allows for easier pulldown removal in post (ie editing in true 23.98 timeline).

Something that hasn't been touched on heavily yet is shutter angle. In 24f (or 23.98p) you can set a 180 degree shutter angle or 1/48th. This will emulate a films standard shutter speed. As Brandon says, 1/24th can appear closer to video, however many, many, big time directors shoot at 1/24th (film and video) without the stigma of it looking blurry. It's all preference. So, in addition to film motion it also is a shutter speed difference (shutter modes which cannot be applied in 30f).

About 30f - it is different than 60i (or NTSC video @ 29.97). We are talking 30 discreet frames of video with optional shutter speeds (common ones are 1/30, 1/60th and up).

Anyway, I hope this helps.
-C

Jack Walker · January 27th, 2009, 11:32 PM

I will contend that 2:3:3:2 looks better than 2:3 2:3 because when you remove the pulldown to edit you end up with all clean frames and no information lost. I didn't make myself clear enough what I meant.

Yes, since this is the Canon XH forum, it would presuppose that the camera is an A1 or G1, and these cameras have the 2:3:3:2 option.

Denny Kyser · January 29th, 2009, 12:33 AM

Good examples, this is hard to grasp sometimes.
I do not use 24f often enough, I am always thinking I may want to do some slow mo, so shoot 60i, almost all the time.

Can you slow down 24f and 30f a little with out having problems?

Jack Walker · January 29th, 2009, 01:12 AM

You can put 30f on a 24p timeline to for slightly slowed down motion.

If you want to use original 24f for slow motion, a program like Twixtor could do a decent job:
RE:Vision Effects, Inc. : Products: Twixtor

Otherwise, 60i is probably best for slo-motion.

You could slow down 24f to 12f by doubling the frames for a special effect.

I would say there is no universal way to shoot. Any given project might shoot footage in a number of different ways, depending on how particular shots and sequences will appear in the final project -- just like different cameras and film stocks are used on a movie.

January 26th, 2009, 03:47 PM	#1
Daniel Fessak Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 123	24F vs. 30F Hello all... What is the difference really between shooting in 24F vs. shooting in 30F, from a visual point of view?

January 27th, 2009, 04:55 PM	#4
Brandon Freeman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 226	I think it comes down to the visual judder, as was explained above. That's about it. Video motion is smoother, film has enough of a step between each frame that it feels more like watching a collection of pictures strung together. There's a fantasy show that comes on late at night where I live, very low budget, and I'm pretty confident its 30p, because the motion is just a little too smooth for my tastes. Of course, if you shoot video at 24p with a 1/24th shutter, that also destroys (IMO) the "film judder" because the motion is so blurry that it seems smoother to me. That's all I can think of. __________________ Canon EOS 7D, Final Cut Studio 2

January 29th, 2009, 12:33 AM	#9
Denny Kyser Major Player Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Warren, Pa Posts: 785	Good examples, this is hard to grasp sometimes. I do not use 24f often enough, I am always thinking I may want to do some slow mo, so shoot 60i, almost all the time. Can you slow down 24f and 30f a little with out having problems? __________________ 2 Canon XF305's Kyser Photography www.kyserphoto.com

January 26th, 2009, 10:46 PM	#2
John D. Bujnowski Tourist Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Bayonne NJ Posts: 3	Somewhat less "motion judder" especially with panning. 24P is supported in BD disks, 30P is not. While 24P has an interesting "look", it works best with slow, very fluid camera operation. Imagine the mass of a large cine camera, and the hyper expensive camera dollies, that is the kind of precision that provides that format with the elegance that videographers crave.

January 27th, 2009, 08:41 AM	#3
Daniel Fessak Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 123	I know about all the movement and slow motion issues, but just looking at something shot in 24f vs. 30f, what would give it away that one was shoot in either format? Just from a visual and not technical standpoint.

January 27th, 2009, 09:10 PM	#5
Daniel Fessak Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 123	I have something this weekend I am going to shoot and really want the film look of 24p, or 24f rather. You think that if I shoot in 30f that other than the motion issues being taken out of the equation, that I will not notice the difference? I will shoot some more test stuff tomorrow and see how it comes out. See the reason I am asking it is if 24f and 30f both look the same, then why bother having 24f as a setting at all? Why would someone want to shoot in 30f rather than 24f knowing they will get the motion issues involved in it? Is that because of film transferring issues?

January 27th, 2009, 10:18 PM	#6
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	When you shoot 24f, set the camera for 2:3:3:2 pulldown. It looks better than 2:3 (2:3:2:3). A good deal of the "judder" seen in 24f has more to do with pulldown and how the video is being displayed than with 24 frames per second. However, both 30f and 24f will look different from 60i. Will and Grace was shot in 30p. When they did a live shot, it was shot and broadcast in 60i. The illusion didn't work as well, and the actors didn't look as good. It looked more like a reality show and the sharp motion jumped out at you. Action movies, dance movies and all the rest are shot at 24 fps, so it's not the motion that is the issue. How the camera moves, how it is focused and sometimes the greater depth of field of video all contribute to the "inferior" look of some 24p video. 24p may be becoming more popular than less popular. A couple of the major video websites are now showing video in 24p, where up to now they showed only 30p. 30p is a good choice if you want to eliminate pulldown issues and are delivering on DVD and the web. However, I personally prefer 24p. Recently I shot a dance show with the Canon XH-A1 and used 24f and it looks great. On the other hand, when I shot a dancer in rehearsal for a documentary, I used 60i. It worked well. I know a well known show promoter that shoots his production with a Canon XH-A1 using 24f--all high motion shows, and the tapes are used for the performers to evaluate their performances and as a record. He likes 24f. Shoot some tests, then play them back the way your final product will be delivered. Make you decision based on that. And you can always change you mind next time.

January 27th, 2009, 11:32 PM	#8
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	I will contend that 2:3:3:2 looks better than 2:3 2:3 because when you remove the pulldown to edit you end up with all clean frames and no information lost. I didn't make myself clear enough what I meant. Yes, since this is the Canon XH forum, it would presuppose that the camera is an A1 or G1, and these cameras have the 2:3:3:2 option.

January 29th, 2009, 01:12 AM	#10
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	You can put 30f on a 24p timeline to for slightly slowed down motion. If you want to use original 24f for slow motion, a program like Twixtor could do a decent job: RE:Vision Effects, Inc. : Products: Twixtor Otherwise, 60i is probably best for slo-motion. You could slow down 24f to 12f by doubling the frames for a special effect. I would say there is no universal way to shoot. Any given project might shoot footage in a number of different ways, depending on how particular shots and sequences will appear in the final project -- just like different cameras and film stocks are used on a movie.