Frame Rate Advice at DVinfo.net

Curt Fargo · January 22nd, 2009, 08:47 AM

I’m a newbie to the video community and could use some advice. Doing much reading on this forum I have come to the conclusion that I should shoot at 30F, please let me know if I am wrong. I’m using Final Cut Pro as my NLE and will be shooting indoors with a green screen.

My work is to be viewed via the web (YouTube or Viemo) or given on a CD/DVD to be viewed on a computer. I would guess that the CD/DVD will be much less than 5% of my need. The videos with be instructional videos on how to do a task, so they are totally technical in nature. I have no interest in making these look like they were done on film, I’m just wanting the highest resolution.

Bill Pryor · January 22nd, 2009, 12:49 PM

Why don't you shoot some tests to see which you like best.

All my training shows go to the web, and I do everything in 24F. I shoot 24f, capture in the FCP HDV1080P24 mode, edit in 23.98 timeline, export to H.264 then convert to Flash, with the final product being 24 fps. Some people shoot 30F and then reduce frame rate to 15 fps for the web, but that slower strobing thing drives me nuts. My rational is that 24 is 20% less than 30, so it's that much less data and it can still go at the rate I shot it in, and since it's progressive, no funky artifacts or need to deinterlace.

Best thing is to do some tests to see what works best for what you're doing.

Curt Fargo · January 22nd, 2009, 01:39 PM

So are you using 24F over 30F just to save on the file size?

Jonathan Shaw · January 22nd, 2009, 02:27 PM

What's your subject? Will you be wanting to slow any of it down?

Curt Fargo · January 22nd, 2009, 02:47 PM

No slomo needed. The subject is showing all about cleaning D-SLR Sensors.

Richard Hunter · January 22nd, 2009, 04:34 PM

Hi Curt. It sounds as if 30F will be fine for you. 24F requires more care in shooting to avoid jerky movements.

Richard

Tripp Woelfel · January 22nd, 2009, 07:56 PM

30p or 24p will both work for you. In many situations, I favor 24p. For others it's all 30p or 60i. It all depends upon the content and the delivery method.

Perhaps the approach I took in branching out into new frame rates might give you some ideas. When I first got my A1, I shot 60i all the time for everything. About six months in, I was shooting mostly motor racing so 60i was preferred because I need slomo. Once the racing season was over, I'd become pretty comfortable with the camera and what it was capable of and I felt it was time to try new things. This included 24p. Nature, news reports, docos can benefit from a 24p treatment.

It's just what I did and it may not work for you. Just some food for thought.

BTW: I'm with Bill for 24p for the Web in most cases. Can't fight the logic.

Curt Fargo · January 22nd, 2009, 08:24 PM

What does 24P offer over 30P other than file size? If 24 progressive frames in a second is good wouldn't 30 be better or can the eye not tell the difference? I went to a mini seminar put on by Canon over the Christmas season that was geared at helping the consumer choose the right consumer video camera. In this 2 hour workshop they showed us similar sceenes shot at 24P, 30P and 60i. If I remember correctly, the 30P appeared to be clearer and sharper than 24P. They also explained that the 24 frame rate was for those who wanted their output to look more like film.

What is the disadvantage of shooting at 30P?

Greg Rothschild · January 22nd, 2009, 11:19 PM

I read recently that Vimeo converts all videos to 24 or 25 fps. Everything I've uploaded to Vimeo has been 30 (deinterlaced from 60i) and there's always been a little herky jerkyness to it. Just fyi.

Ian Wright · January 23rd, 2009, 02:14 AM

I use 1080 50i with no problems. I output 720 mpeg and then compress it with H.264 with a bit rate of 0.8 Mb/sec. Due to the nature of H.264, the file size for 15 and 25 frames/sec is essentially the same, so I use 25fps.

We host the video on our own server and use the JW viewer on our pages.

Here's my current favourite:
Amanda Palmer, Danger Ensemble, Zoe Keating and Jason Webley live in concert: video clip Festival Previews Video Blog

Ian
Festival Video and Audio Previews - Festival Previews Ltd

Richard Hunter · January 23rd, 2009, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Rothschild

I read recently that Vimeo converts all videos to 24 or 25 fps. Everything I've uploaded to Vimeo has been 30 (deinterlaced from 60i) and there's always been a little herky jerkyness to it. Just fyi.

Vimeo converts everything to 24fps. I'm not sure how they handle 30p uploads, but for PAL 25p they just discard one frame per second (which is horrible). Hopefully with revenue from Vimeo Plus they will improve on that.

Richard

Richard Hunter · January 23rd, 2009, 05:23 AM

Please delete.

Curt Fargo · January 23rd, 2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Hunter

Vimeo converts everything to 24fps. I'm not sure how they handle 30p uploads, but for PAL 25p they just discard one frame per second (which is horrible). Hopefully with revenue from Vimeo Plus they will improve on that.

Richard

Are we sure about this as the tutorial my NLE on Vimeo HD Video Encoding for Vimeo using Compressor on Vimeo has you creating a 30fps file for submission? I haven't done the research yet on best HD for YouTube.

Richard Hunter · January 23rd, 2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curt Fargo

Are we sure about this as the tutorial my NLE on Vimeo HD Video Encoding for Vimeo using Compressor on Vimeo has you creating a 30fps file for submission? I haven't done the research yet on best HD for YouTube.

Hi Curt. I just checked the Vimeo forums, and this post from 2 days ago indicates that it still doesn't support 30p playback.

Need 30p support in vimeo to avoid 5D MKII issues in the Vimeo Feature Requests Forum

But I also found this post

Staff Blog / Vimeo Plus, now available for everyone!

and the good news for PAL folks is that 25p is now supported. Thanks Curt for making me find that!

Richard

Tripp Woelfel · January 23rd, 2009, 06:23 PM

Vimeo has supported 30p for about eight or nine months. I new that 25p was in the offing for the PAL folks.

Before they supported 30p if you uploaded a 30p video, in the transcode to flash it would unceremoniously drop the last six frames each second. It wasn't just herky-jerky. It was spastic.

January 22nd, 2009, 08:47 AM	#1
Curt Fargo Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vacaville, CA USA Posts: 83	Frame Rate Advice I’m a newbie to the video community and could use some advice. Doing much reading on this forum I have come to the conclusion that I should shoot at 30F, please let me know if I am wrong. I’m using Final Cut Pro as my NLE and will be shooting indoors with a green screen. My work is to be viewed via the web (YouTube or Viemo) or given on a CD/DVD to be viewed on a computer. I would guess that the CD/DVD will be much less than 5% of my need. The videos with be instructional videos on how to do a task, so they are totally technical in nature. I have no interest in making these look like they were done on film, I’m just wanting the highest resolution. __________________ Curt Fargo

January 22nd, 2009, 01:39 PM	#3
Curt Fargo Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vacaville, CA USA Posts: 83	So are you using 24F over 30F just to save on the file size? __________________ Curt Fargo

January 22nd, 2009, 02:27 PM	#4
Jonathan Shaw Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 552	What's your subject? Will you be wanting to slow any of it down? __________________ www.ginclearfilm.com www.facebook.com/ginclearfilm

January 22nd, 2009, 02:47 PM	#5
Curt Fargo Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vacaville, CA USA Posts: 83	No slomo needed. The subject is showing all about cleaning D-SLR Sensors. __________________ Curt Fargo

January 22nd, 2009, 08:24 PM	#8
Curt Fargo Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vacaville, CA USA Posts: 83	What does 24P offer over 30P other than file size? If 24 progressive frames in a second is good wouldn't 30 be better or can the eye not tell the difference? I went to a mini seminar put on by Canon over the Christmas season that was geared at helping the consumer choose the right consumer video camera. In this 2 hour workshop they showed us similar sceenes shot at 24P, 30P and 60i. If I remember correctly, the 30P appeared to be clearer and sharper than 24P. They also explained that the 24 frame rate was for those who wanted their output to look more like film. What is the disadvantage of shooting at 30P? __________________ Curt Fargo

January 22nd, 2009, 12:49 PM	#2
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Why don't you shoot some tests to see which you like best. All my training shows go to the web, and I do everything in 24F. I shoot 24f, capture in the FCP HDV1080P24 mode, edit in 23.98 timeline, export to H.264 then convert to Flash, with the final product being 24 fps. Some people shoot 30F and then reduce frame rate to 15 fps for the web, but that slower strobing thing drives me nuts. My rational is that 24 is 20% less than 30, so it's that much less data and it can still go at the rate I shot it in, and since it's progressive, no funky artifacts or need to deinterlace. Best thing is to do some tests to see what works best for what you're doing.

January 22nd, 2009, 04:34 PM	#6
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	Hi Curt. It sounds as if 30F will be fine for you. 24F requires more care in shooting to avoid jerky movements. Richard

January 22nd, 2009, 07:56 PM	#7
Tripp Woelfel Trustee Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: North Conway, NH Posts: 1,745	30p or 24p will both work for you. In many situations, I favor 24p. For others it's all 30p or 60i. It all depends upon the content and the delivery method. Perhaps the approach I took in branching out into new frame rates might give you some ideas. When I first got my A1, I shot 60i all the time for everything. About six months in, I was shooting mostly motor racing so 60i was preferred because I need slomo. Once the racing season was over, I'd become pretty comfortable with the camera and what it was capable of and I felt it was time to try new things. This included 24p. Nature, news reports, docos can benefit from a 24p treatment. It's just what I did and it may not work for you. Just some food for thought. BTW: I'm with Bill for 24p for the Web in most cases. Can't fight the logic.

January 22nd, 2009, 11:19 PM	#9
Greg Rothschild Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Los Angeles, Ca Posts: 120	I read recently that Vimeo converts all videos to 24 or 25 fps. Everything I've uploaded to Vimeo has been 30 (deinterlaced from 60i) and there's always been a little herky jerkyness to it. Just fyi. __________________ Greg Rothschild Photography http://www.gregrothschild.com

January 23rd, 2009, 02:14 AM	#10
Ian Wright Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Edinburgh UK Posts: 94	I use 1080 50i with no problems. I output 720 mpeg and then compress it with H.264 with a bit rate of 0.8 Mb/sec. Due to the nature of H.264, the file size for 15 and 25 frames/sec is essentially the same, so I use 25fps. We host the video on our own server and use the JW viewer on our pages. Here's my current favourite: Amanda Palmer, Danger Ensemble, Zoe Keating and Jason Webley live in concert: video clip Festival Previews Video Blog Ian Festival Video and Audio Previews - Festival Previews Ltd

January 23rd, 2009, 05:23 AM	#12
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	Please delete.

January 23rd, 2009, 06:23 PM	#15
Tripp Woelfel Trustee Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: North Conway, NH Posts: 1,745	Vimeo has supported 30p for about eight or nine months. I new that 25p was in the offing for the PAL folks. Before they supported 30p if you uploaded a 30p video, in the transcode to flash it would unceremoniously drop the last six frames each second. It wasn't just herky-jerky. It was spastic.