XH-A1 about the 24fsp at DVinfo.net

Arthur Abramov · January 2nd, 2009, 01:34 PM

Hi everybody :) my first post here. !

Anyway, i read and older post(i found some information regarding my question) but i can't find it again so decided to create another one to get some of my questions to be answered by your generosity to share knowledge :)

I read so some articles about the recording modes of hv30, i had that camera for a while, and when recording on 24p which requires pull down 2:3. Now about the XH-A1 i read here that it records true 24p, and i read in camcordersinfo.com

this -- "Scan Rates/24p (8.0)
The XH A1 cannot record video in “true 24p” opting instead for 24F - and this may be perceived by many as the biggest shortcoming of Canon’s high-end models. We are unconvinced that this should be a deal-breaker for DPs looking for a camcorder that records full-frame video for two reasons: The video resolution and image controls on the XH A1 are arguably superior to those offered by other camcorders in a similar price range, and 24F differs only in that its full-frame video originates from an interlaced imaging system. The upshot is that differences between 24p and 24F deliverables are impacted by many factors, including native resolution, image controls, and the method used by the camcorder to produce full video frames. We’re reluctant to say one looks better than the other, and believe that it’s a matter best left to the individual shooter to assess based on their needs and aesthetic preferences. In addition to 24F, the XH A1 records in 60i and 30F modes. "

the point is , do i need to remove any pulldown when i edit the footage when recorded in 24f in A1 ?

Jack Walker · January 2nd, 2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthur Abramov

Hi everybody :)
the point is , do i need to remove any pulldown when i edit the footage when recorded in 24f in A1 ?

No, you are recording true 24 progressive. (This is different from what the HV20/30 does.)

Most of the quotation is nonsense. I will say, the only accurate information is that the Canon camera has an interlaced sensor (as opposed to the JVC HD line that uses a progressive sensor), but the resulting video is true progressive. The quality of the video is excellent. Problems arise when shooting the wrong shutter speed or using inappropriate camera techniques, about both you've probably read a lot on these forums.

If you want to mix HV20 video and XH-A1 video on the same 24p (23.98) timeline, certain NLEs and other tools make the workflow simpler. (For example Edius and I think Vegas remove the pulldown from the HV20 easily. More info about those and other solutions in the NLE forums.)

(The process by which Canon generates the progressive frames from the interlaced system is highly classified!)

Arthur Abramov · January 2nd, 2009, 08:25 PM

And when capturing from the camcorder to premiere pro cs3, or vegas 8 , how should i do it , i have to create a new project and set the presets to 23.97..?

is there anyway to find out the details of the settings for capturing 24F?

Betsy Moore · January 29th, 2009, 05:37 PM

I keep looking for information on 24f and each time I look for discussions on it I come across you stopping the discussions with "everything your saying is nonsense, 24f is true progressive." Would you mind linking this assertion to a previous thread or to a formal online review? I'd really appreciate it as some of us have bad memories of 24f and want to make sure the bad old days are gone. Thanks:)

Pete Bauer · January 29th, 2009, 08:00 PM

Hey Arthur, welcome to DVinfo.net and apologies for not greeting you sooner.

Regarding the review you mentioned, well, you can't believe everything you read on "the internets." In this case, the review suffers from speculative journalism. When it was published (Nov 2006), Canon was not saying much about the Frame mode (24F, 25F, 30F) used in the HDV XL and XH cameras, and people were guessing, making assumptions, theorizing but did NOT know how Frame mode works. It appears to me that the author simply guessed that it wasn't progressive, and as Jack indicated, the author was wrong. Further, in over two years, they haven't bothered to correct an obviously flubbed review!

Past and present Canon consumer camcorders do record their progressive images as 2:3 (24p) or Progressive Segmented Frame (25p, 30p), although that will change for some of the soon-to-come cameras.

Betsy, not to worry. Progressive. Pull up the English XH user manual and read page 40. HDV Frame mode in all XL and XH cameras is recorded to tape progressively. The sensor is an interlaced part not manufactured by Canon, but they figured out how to read all 1080 lines at the same instant, instead of in fields. The signal is at no point interlaced. The static resolution on charts is slightly less (generally measured at 10-15%) than the 60i mode rez; it is a beautiful HD picture. The SEARCH link will take you to numerous threads, mostly in the XL forum, on all of these aspects of Frame Mode.

Richard Hunter · January 30th, 2009, 06:19 AM

Betsy, the XH-A1 records progressive frames to tape, so for editing purposes they are true progressive. These frames are created from an interlaced sensor, which is why they are called 24F and not 24P.

Are they the same as what you would get from a progressive sensor? Well I read somewhere a couple of years back that the vertical resolution is less than 1080, due to the way the full frame is created from the 2 fields, and I accept this intuitively. If Canon could create full resolution progressive frames from their CCD I'm sure they would not hesitate to call it 24P, (no doubt the marketing guys would insist upon it). But the resulting 24F resolution is still comparable to (or better than) what the immediate competition has to offer, due to the XH-A1's optics and 1440x1080 pixel block that doesn't require pixel-shifting to achieve HDV resolution. With this level of resolution available, it is approaching the academic (or measurebating as some on this forum would say :) ) to try to make the distinction between 24F and 24P. For most people, and without resolution charts, there is no visible difference.

Anyway, at the risk of being accused of talking nonsense, that's what I believe. :)

Richard

Bill Pryor · January 31st, 2009, 11:09 AM

Or, if you don't want to believe anybody, shoot some 24F and check it out for yourself. It's progressive, no interlace artifacts, no need to deinterlace when exporting for the web, and every second will have 24 frames. Check it out.
The resolution supposedly drops off a little from shooting 60i, but I've done a side by side check and can't see any difference on my monitors. I assume it's there, but the resolution is high enough that losing a little really doesn't matter.

January 2nd, 2009, 01:34 PM	#1
Arthur Abramov Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: new york, Israel Posts: 136	XH-A1 about the 24fsp Hi everybody :) my first post here. ! Anyway, i read and older post(i found some information regarding my question) but i can't find it again so decided to create another one to get some of my questions to be answered by your generosity to share knowledge :) I read so some articles about the recording modes of hv30, i had that camera for a while, and when recording on 24p which requires pull down 2:3. Now about the XH-A1 i read here that it records true 24p, and i read in camcordersinfo.com this -- "Scan Rates/24p (8.0) The XH A1 cannot record video in “true 24p” opting instead for 24F - and this may be perceived by many as the biggest shortcoming of Canon’s high-end models. We are unconvinced that this should be a deal-breaker for DPs looking for a camcorder that records full-frame video for two reasons: The video resolution and image controls on the XH A1 are arguably superior to those offered by other camcorders in a similar price range, and 24F differs only in that its full-frame video originates from an interlaced imaging system. The upshot is that differences between 24p and 24F deliverables are impacted by many factors, including native resolution, image controls, and the method used by the camcorder to produce full video frames. We’re reluctant to say one looks better than the other, and believe that it’s a matter best left to the individual shooter to assess based on their needs and aesthetic preferences. In addition to 24F, the XH A1 records in 60i and 30F modes. " the point is , do i need to remove any pulldown when i edit the footage when recorded in 24f in A1 ?

January 29th, 2009, 08:00 PM	#5
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Hey Arthur, welcome to DVinfo.net and apologies for not greeting you sooner. Regarding the review you mentioned, well, you can't believe everything you read on "the internets." In this case, the review suffers from speculative journalism. When it was published (Nov 2006), Canon was not saying much about the Frame mode (24F, 25F, 30F) used in the HDV XL and XH cameras, and people were guessing, making assumptions, theorizing but did NOT know how Frame mode works. It appears to me that the author simply guessed that it wasn't progressive, and as Jack indicated, the author was wrong. Further, in over two years, they haven't bothered to correct an obviously flubbed review! Past and present Canon consumer camcorders do record their progressive images as 2:3 (24p) or Progressive Segmented Frame (25p, 30p), although that will change for some of the soon-to-come cameras. Betsy, not to worry. Progressive. Pull up the English XH user manual and read page 40. HDV Frame mode in all XL and XH cameras is recorded to tape progressively. The sensor is an interlaced part not manufactured by Canon, but they figured out how to read all 1080 lines at the same instant, instead of in fields. The signal is at no point interlaced. The static resolution on charts is slightly less (generally measured at 10-15%) than the 60i mode rez; it is a beautiful HD picture. The SEARCH link will take you to numerous threads, mostly in the XL forum, on all of these aspects of Frame Mode. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

January 2nd, 2009, 08:25 PM	#3
Arthur Abramov Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: new york, Israel Posts: 136	And when capturing from the camcorder to premiere pro cs3, or vegas 8 , how should i do it , i have to create a new project and set the presets to 23.97..? is there anyway to find out the details of the settings for capturing 24F?

January 29th, 2009, 05:37 PM	#4
Betsy Moore Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 444	I keep looking for information on 24f and each time I look for discussions on it I come across you stopping the discussions with "everything your saying is nonsense, 24f is true progressive." Would you mind linking this assertion to a previous thread or to a formal online review? I'd really appreciate it as some of us have bad memories of 24f and want to make sure the bad old days are gone. Thanks:)

January 30th, 2009, 06:19 AM	#6
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	Betsy, the XH-A1 records progressive frames to tape, so for editing purposes they are true progressive. These frames are created from an interlaced sensor, which is why they are called 24F and not 24P. Are they the same as what you would get from a progressive sensor? Well I read somewhere a couple of years back that the vertical resolution is less than 1080, due to the way the full frame is created from the 2 fields, and I accept this intuitively. If Canon could create full resolution progressive frames from their CCD I'm sure they would not hesitate to call it 24P, (no doubt the marketing guys would insist upon it). But the resulting 24F resolution is still comparable to (or better than) what the immediate competition has to offer, due to the XH-A1's optics and 1440x1080 pixel block that doesn't require pixel-shifting to achieve HDV resolution. With this level of resolution available, it is approaching the academic (or measurebating as some on this forum would say :) ) to try to make the distinction between 24F and 24P. For most people, and without resolution charts, there is no visible difference. Anyway, at the risk of being accused of talking nonsense, that's what I believe. :) Richard

January 31st, 2009, 11:09 AM	#7
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Or, if you don't want to believe anybody, shoot some 24F and check it out for yourself. It's progressive, no interlace artifacts, no need to deinterlace when exporting for the web, and every second will have 24 frames. Check it out. The resolution supposedly drops off a little from shooting 60i, but I've done a side by side check and can't see any difference on my monitors. I assume it's there, but the resolution is high enough that losing a little really doesn't matter.