Which tape to use (revisited)

Tom Hardwick · December 18th, 2008, 02:37 PM

A lot of guff is written about tape. I've seen reports that state that Mini DV in LP doesn't record as sharp a picture as in SP, and that Panasonic tapes give better skin tones. Yes, really!

And from Tape Resources:

''The Sony EX miniDV has a superior Carrier to Noise ratio of about 2db over the PR View Mini DV Tapes.''

Er? There's no 'noise' in digital, only what your camera puts there.

and:

''The IC chip in the tape are for use by some camcorders to remember settings of such things as apertures, f-stops, and other data etc.''

Of course this is balderdash, and the IC chip is there for completely different reasons. So don't believe all you read on a web site.

tom.

Greg Clark · September 3rd, 2009, 08:41 AM

I switched from the Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ to Sony DVM60 because of drop outs. Well Sony has provided me with the same amount of dropouts as Panasonic.
As I mentioned in a previous post the only tape that doesn't give me dropouts is the TDK sold at Costco.

Eric Vecchi · September 3rd, 2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Clark

Well Sony has provided me with the same amount of dropouts as Panasonic.

Greg, did how often do you clean your heads and did you clean before you switched to Sony's?

I have had success with TDKs and I will stick with them.

Kevin Lewis · September 6th, 2009, 11:22 AM

I have had my XHA1 for abot 7 months now. I only use the Canon Master tapes (the one in the black plastic case). They are expensive (about 23.00 each) but I have never had a drop out. I have been working on a prohect for the last 8 months and have needed to ensure a low to no drop out rate. So far so good. That being said, once the project is complete, I will be looking for a less expensive option.

Greg Clark · September 6th, 2009, 12:07 PM

Kevin I bet the Panasonic Master tapes will not have drop outs but at $23 each and considering the number of tapes I use in one project it would be cost prohibitive for me.
As I posted earlier I have never had a problem with cheaper Costco TDK's and after head cleaning, from the disaster of Sony DVM60's, I have returned to these old stand byes.
The only negative is that Costco is noted for stopping sales of products without a warning.

Jacques E. Bouchard · September 6th, 2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Lewis

I have had my XHA1 for abot 7 months now. I only use the Canon Master tapes (the one in the black plastic case). They are expensive (about 23.00 each) but I have never had a drop out. I have been working on a prohect for the last 8 months and have needed to ensure a low to no drop out rate. So far so good. That being said, once the project is complete, I will be looking for a less expensive option.

Canon doesn't manufacture tapes. That means you can probably buy tapes by the same manufacturer under a different name for a fraction of Canon's price.

The mindless mantra "You get what you pay for" is true only if the "what" stands for brand prestige. Nothing else.

J.

Bill Pryor · September 6th, 2009, 05:36 PM

I think the Canon tapes are made by Sony. I use the Sony Digital Mastering tapes, about $16 (USD) each. Have never had a problem at all. I started with the Panasonic AMQ and had too many problems, so switched.

Allan Black · September 7th, 2009, 02:43 AM

Here's my 2 cents. There are only 4 DV tape manufacturers left and they produce only one grade of DV tape each.

Producing a consistent grade of magnetic tape is a specialised non stop operation. They just can't afford to halt production while they change over to different tape formulations, stopping to change the knives is enough. And how would they keep up with markets around the world for all their different grades. Impossible.

The DV tape quality (read price) differences are in the tape shells. The costlier ones feature a better grade of polystyrene, stronger tape guides with metal pins, more quality control and fancier packaging. Polystyrene is very expensive so it's cost related.

The products can be graded into middle impact polystyrene (MIPS), high impact (HIPS) and super high impact (SHIPS). Adjuvants are added to improve the glaze or other capabilities. A flame retardant grade of HIPS has been developed.

As solid state storage takes over, all DV tape sales will fall off and it'll get faster. At a certain level, the manufacturers will cease production and sell their plants to smaller start up companies who want to make a fast buck. They'll cut costs, eg: cheaper tape shells, packaging and less quality control. We'll be first to see the trouble, and if it wasn't for the huge third world market we'd already have seen the end of magnetic tape as we know it.

I owned an audio cassette bulk tape duplication company and saw this happen changing over to CDs. We used BASF tape from Germany, it was excellent. But they sold their tape plant to Qantegy in Korea and within 6 months we had trouble with their tape quality.

IMO keep your favourite DV tape stock levels up, always keep a DV camera in good condition to play your tape archives .. and keep up with the AVCHD progressions to dive in when you have to.

Cheers.

Greg Clark · September 9th, 2009, 05:15 PM

Allan's comments are very interesting. Another post should also be taken into consideration.
Which DV Tape You Use/Like - Page 2 - Canon HV20, HV30 & HV40 User Forum

Hugh Walton · September 9th, 2009, 07:08 PM

I have used only Sony PHDVM63 tapes with my XH-A1 and HV40. I have never had a drop out and I don't plan on changing tape brands until I have a problem. They may cost 2 to 3 times as much as other tapes, but I am happy to invest a little extra in my media. Relatively speaking, spending a few extra dollars on tapes is not that big a deal.

Hugh

Roger Shealy · September 9th, 2009, 07:25 PM

I use Sony DVM60PRR that cost $2.20 at B&H. If I need 80 minute tapes I purchase the DVM80PRL that cost around $8.50. Haven't had a single problem in my XHA1.

I've used the much more expensive Sony DVM63HD ($12) and can tell no difference in performance.

Adam Chilton · September 10th, 2009, 10:38 AM

I am just wondering, if I am using panasonic tapes, does it matter which tape cleaner I should use? should I use a panasonic cleaner if I'm using pana tapes or are all tape cleaners the same?

Tom Hardwick · September 10th, 2009, 10:42 AM

You can use any tape head cleaner you like. They're all slightly abraisive which is why it should be used sparingly.

Allan Black · September 11th, 2009, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Clark

Allan's comments are very interesting. Another post should also be taken into consideration.
Which DV Tape You Use/Like - Page 2 - Canon HV20, HV30 & HV40 User Forum

If anyone is interested, read through the magnetic tape 'manufacturing process' here. You can see how specialised the process really is. It must have been written at least 10 years ago because a few minor processes have been updated.

videotape: Definition from Answers.com

Allan Black · September 11th, 2009, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Chilton

I am just wondering, if I am using panasonic tapes, does it matter which tape cleaner I should use? should I use a panasonic cleaner if I'm using pana tapes or are all tape cleaners the same?

I and others say you should use a DV cleaner tape the same brand as the DV tape you use to record with. There are dry and wet lubrication types, Sony is wet and Panasonic is dry. So check Google and the forums and decide for yourself.

Cheers.

September 3rd, 2009, 08:41 AM	#32
Greg Clark Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Surprise Arizona Posts: 297	Sony tape is no better than Panasonic I switched from the Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ to Sony DVM60 because of drop outs. Well Sony has provided me with the same amount of dropouts as Panasonic. As I mentioned in a previous post the only tape that doesn't give me dropouts is the TDK sold at Costco.

September 6th, 2009, 12:07 PM	#35
Greg Clark Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Surprise Arizona Posts: 297	I am envious Kevin I bet the Panasonic Master tapes will not have drop outs but at $23 each and considering the number of tapes I use in one project it would be cost prohibitive for me. As I posted earlier I have never had a problem with cheaper Costco TDK's and after head cleaning, from the disaster of Sony DVM60's, I have returned to these old stand byes. The only negative is that Costco is noted for stopping sales of products without a warning.

September 7th, 2009, 02:43 AM	#38
Allan Black Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney. Posts: 2,919	Here's my 2 cents. There are only 4 DV tape manufacturers left and they produce only one grade of DV tape each. Producing a consistent grade of magnetic tape is a specialised non stop operation. They just can't afford to halt production while they change over to different tape formulations, stopping to change the knives is enough. And how would they keep up with markets around the world for all their different grades. Impossible. The DV tape quality (read price) differences are in the tape shells. The costlier ones feature a better grade of polystyrene, stronger tape guides with metal pins, more quality control and fancier packaging. Polystyrene is very expensive so it's cost related. The products can be graded into middle impact polystyrene (MIPS), high impact (HIPS) and super high impact (SHIPS). Adjuvants are added to improve the glaze or other capabilities. A flame retardant grade of HIPS has been developed. As solid state storage takes over, all DV tape sales will fall off and it'll get faster. At a certain level, the manufacturers will cease production and sell their plants to smaller start up companies who want to make a fast buck. They'll cut costs, eg: cheaper tape shells, packaging and less quality control. We'll be first to see the trouble, and if it wasn't for the huge third world market we'd already have seen the end of magnetic tape as we know it. I owned an audio cassette bulk tape duplication company and saw this happen changing over to CDs. We used BASF tape from Germany, it was excellent. But they sold their tape plant to Qantegy in Korea and within 6 months we had trouble with their tape quality. IMO keep your favourite DV tape stock levels up, always keep a DV camera in good condition to play your tape archives .. and keep up with the AVCHD progressions to dive in when you have to. Cheers. __________________ Drink more tap water. On admission at Sydney hospitals more than 5% of day patients are de-hydrated.

September 9th, 2009, 05:15 PM	#39
Greg Clark Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Surprise Arizona Posts: 297	More Opinions Allan's comments are very interesting. Another post should also be taken into consideration. Which DV Tape You Use/Like - Page 2 - Canon HV20, HV30 & HV40 User Forum

December 18th, 2008, 02:37 PM	#31
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	A lot of guff is written about tape. I've seen reports that state that Mini DV in LP doesn't record as sharp a picture as in SP, and that Panasonic tapes give better skin tones. Yes, really! And from Tape Resources: ''The Sony EX miniDV has a superior Carrier to Noise ratio of about 2db over the PR View Mini DV Tapes.'' Er? There's no 'noise' in digital, only what your camera puts there. and: ''The IC chip in the tape are for use by some camcorders to remember settings of such things as apertures, f-stops, and other data etc.'' Of course this is balderdash, and the IC chip is there for completely different reasons. So don't believe all you read on a web site. tom.

September 6th, 2009, 11:22 AM	#34
Kevin Lewis Major Player Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Philadelphia, pa Posts: 705	I have had my XHA1 for abot 7 months now. I only use the Canon Master tapes (the one in the black plastic case). They are expensive (about 23.00 each) but I have never had a drop out. I have been working on a prohect for the last 8 months and have needed to ensure a low to no drop out rate. So far so good. That being said, once the project is complete, I will be looking for a less expensive option.

September 6th, 2009, 05:36 PM	#37
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I think the Canon tapes are made by Sony. I use the Sony Digital Mastering tapes, about $16 (USD) each. Have never had a problem at all. I started with the Panasonic AMQ and had too many problems, so switched.

September 9th, 2009, 07:08 PM	#40
Hugh Walton Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: New York City Posts: 77	I have used only Sony PHDVM63 tapes with my XH-A1 and HV40. I have never had a drop out and I don't plan on changing tape brands until I have a problem. They may cost 2 to 3 times as much as other tapes, but I am happy to invest a little extra in my media. Relatively speaking, spending a few extra dollars on tapes is not that big a deal. Hugh

September 9th, 2009, 07:25 PM	#41
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	I use Sony DVM60PRR that cost $2.20 at B&H. If I need 80 minute tapes I purchase the DVM80PRL that cost around $8.50. Haven't had a single problem in my XHA1. I've used the much more expensive Sony DVM63HD ($12) and can tell no difference in performance.

September 10th, 2009, 10:38 AM	#42
Adam Chilton New Boot Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The West, Canada Posts: 5	I am just wondering, if I am using panasonic tapes, does it matter which tape cleaner I should use? should I use a panasonic cleaner if I'm using pana tapes or are all tape cleaners the same?

September 10th, 2009, 10:42 AM	#43
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	You can use any tape head cleaner you like. They're all slightly abraisive which is why it should be used sparingly.