What's wrong with my A1

Kiflom Bahta · July 17th, 2008, 07:21 AM

If it is premier, then how come it doesn't do the same with my dvx. I shot the same thing with both camera @ 30p but it only happen to the A1 footage. thx

Przemysław Pyrek · July 17th, 2008, 07:25 AM

Hi guys,
i know that you all love A1, so do i - at least in HDV mode.
This is simply how it works in SD, it's the same thing with mine. Shooting SD with A1 you always end up with a flickery and blurry footage. My advice is, save yourself trouble and shoot HDV or if you need SD on tape, shoot it with some other camera.

Please guys, don't hurt me now... ;-)

Kiflom Bahta · July 17th, 2008, 07:41 AM

This is a tough pill to swollow. I am not sold on the SD Vs HD issue. It also does it with the original AVI. Richard, can you repost the corrected the version. Thx

Khoi Pham · July 17th, 2008, 09:14 AM

The reason is A1 is too sharp, those thin horizontal line flickering are result of interlaced, if something is sharp and thin, and horizontal when the tv display the odd lines, it is there, but if there is a little bit of movement and when the tv display the even lines and it is not there anymore that is when you see flickering, DVX is no where as sharp as A1 that is why you don't see that problem, if you buy and HDV camera, shoot it in HDV not SD, or try turning the sharpness all the way down and horizontal detail frequency all the way down in the main menu. Shoot in HD and watch it on a progressive HD and I guarantee you that the problem is not there so the problem is in SD, people with EX1 are having the same problem downconvert to SD if they don't do it right.

Kiflom Bahta · July 17th, 2008, 09:36 AM

Hi Khoi, I used Steven's vivid to shoot this event with sharp set at 3. Why would sharpness would be ok in HD not SD?

Khoi Pham · July 17th, 2008, 09:59 AM

Because HDTV are mostly progressive, does not have a problem with thin horizontal line dispalying 1 field and then next field where the line might not be there, I don't know Steven's vivid preset but sharpness should always set to 0 or neutral, in your case using the camera as SD camera, it might be better to go into the negative range, sharpness at above neutral does nothing but add edge enhancement, edge enhancement is adding contrast at the edge, this will make your flickering worse.
Go to this link and learn about edge enhancement.
http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm

Kiflom Bahta · July 17th, 2008, 02:13 PM

I see no use in shooting HD if my client want SD. If they pay me for HD, I shoot HD. Anyways if this the case, I will be in Dallas on August 2nd for a shoot and i will be more than happy take to you to a stake house of your choice. (*____*)

Jim Andrada · July 17th, 2008, 11:48 PM

In which case, you should shoot with an SD camera unless the client wants HD.

I think the question was how to get the best SD result with your HD camera, and shooting HD and downconverting seems to be the prevalent answer

Brian David Melnyk · July 18th, 2008, 12:07 AM

i think, from what i've read here and also experienced, the 'use' in shooting and editing in HDV is that the final SD product is a better image, and you have more options in the future for output of the project (and the space required is the same as SD) . i relate it to recording audio at 24 bit 96 kHz when the final output is for a 16 bit 44.1 kHz CD (or MP3...). The end product is much richer. i''ve noticed a huge difference between 24 bit 96 kHz and 24 bit 44.1 kHz when converted to 16/44.1. Now i only record 24/96. so the question is: why use a match when you have a blowtorch?
CHAOS theory emphasizes the 'critical dependence on initial conditions'. it's SCIENCE...ience...ience...ience...ience....(ience).

Brian David Melnyk · July 18th, 2008, 12:15 AM

i think, from what i've read here and also experienced, the 'use' in shooting and editing in HDV is that the final SD product is a better image, and you have more options in the future for output of the project (and the space required is the same as SD) . i relate it to recording audio at 24 bit 96 kHz when the final output is for a 16 bit 44.1 kHz CD (or MP3...). The end product is much richer. i''ve noticed a huge difference between 24 bit 96 kHz and 24 bit 44.1 kHz when converted to 16/44.1. Now i only record 24/96. so the question is: why use a match when you have a blowtorch?
CHAOS theory emphasizes the 'critical dependence on initial conditions'. it's SCIENCE...ience...ience...ience...ience....(ience).

Dennis Murphy · July 18th, 2008, 07:00 PM

Vimeo does add some jitteryness even if you download the flic.
I shoot everything HDV, edit HDV and then render out to SD.

I suspect this will solve all your problems, but am willing to virtually drink anyone under the virtual table if I'm wrong.

Richard Hunter · July 19th, 2008, 10:05 PM

Here's the first half of the same clip, but rendered in 720P which is allocated a higher bitrate by Vimeo.

http://www.vimeo.com/1372097

The artifacts are much reduced, so I believe that the compression is the main cause of the jittery lines. Having said that, I must add that I fully agree with the others, that you should shoot in HDV resolution with the XH-A1 and downres it later. You can even downconvert in camera while capturing to hard disk. This is not the best way of working, but I think it will give you better quality than shooting SD. And you will not even have to deal with m2t files at all, you just edit SD DV files as normal.

Richard

Mark Fry · July 21st, 2008, 09:47 AM

Here's another vote for shooting and editing in HDV and only down-scaling right at the very end of the project. Shooting HDV and down-scaling in-camera will not be much better than shooting SD, with the XH-A1 and, I think, any other HDV camera. Choose your conversion software carefully, too, because they are not all the same. I use Avid Liquid, which is not bad, but I hear that Canopus ProCoder (stand-alone or as part of Edius) is the best of the bunch at the moment. Since you have an XH-A1, I think that's the best way to get good SD outputs from it.

As for whether it's worth using an HDV camera if the end product is a regular DVD - some of my viewers say they see an improvement over my old XM1, while others don't. It's certainly no worse. I needed to replace the XM1, so went for HDV, since it does SD just as well as the old one and gives me wonderful HD as well. However, a friend faced with a similar choice went for another SD cam (VX2100 in his case) even though he has an HDTV. Horses for courses...

Kiflom Bahta · July 22nd, 2008, 11:07 PM

Hi guys, i am still trying figure this out. I know it is not vimeo or premier cuz it still does the same thing before capture. I also know it is not the preset or sharpness. I am very sure it is not SD Vs HD thingy. The A1 takes amazing SD, way better than my other SD camera's. So i willing to give $$$ for any body who can figure it out. Thank.

Bill Busby · July 22nd, 2008, 11:59 PM

I just tried to look at this again & gave up with Vimeo. It's hard to judge anything qualitywise on that site.

I did use the download link provided for the avi file & noticed something interesting. It's as if there are stationary vertical "slices" (maybe 15 or so, evenly spaced) that seems to be maybe a field or frame out of sync with every other "slice". These "slices" are very apparent on the last scene while panning & it gets to a busier background. Check it out. I've never seen this oddity before. It's as if some crappy, somewhat subtle digital effect has been applied.

I would play this tape from the A1 if I were you & run this out to a monitor from your cam, preferably with component out. If it's not there then it's likely an error during your encoding process. If it IS there then I would contact Canon ASAP.

*edit* This was observed while using QT. I just now, on a whim, opened it with Media Player & can't see the sliced stuff but it still looks horrible nonetheless.

July 17th, 2008, 09:14 AM	#19
Khoi Pham Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Posts: 747	The reason is A1 is too sharp, those thin horizontal line flickering are result of interlaced, if something is sharp and thin, and horizontal when the tv display the odd lines, it is there, but if there is a little bit of movement and when the tv display the even lines and it is not there anymore that is when you see flickering, DVX is no where as sharp as A1 that is why you don't see that problem, if you buy and HDV camera, shoot it in HDV not SD, or try turning the sharpness all the way down and horizontal detail frequency all the way down in the main menu. Shoot in HD and watch it on a progressive HD and I guarantee you that the problem is not there so the problem is in SD, people with EX1 are having the same problem downconvert to SD if they don't do it right. __________________ Khoi Pham www.proeditproductions.com

July 17th, 2008, 09:59 AM	#21
Khoi Pham Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Posts: 747	Because HDTV are mostly progressive, does not have a problem with thin horizontal line dispalying 1 field and then next field where the line might not be there, I don't know Steven's vivid preset but sharpness should always set to 0 or neutral, in your case using the camera as SD camera, it might be better to go into the negative range, sharpness at above neutral does nothing but add edge enhancement, edge enhancement is adding contrast at the edge, this will make your flickering worse. Go to this link and learn about edge enhancement. http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm __________________ Khoi Pham www.proeditproductions.com

July 18th, 2008, 07:00 PM	#26
Dennis Murphy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Whangarei, New Zealand Posts: 396	Vimeo does add some jitteryness even if you download the flic. I shoot everything HDV, edit HDV and then render out to SD. I suspect this will solve all your problems, but am willing to virtually drink anyone under the virtual table if I'm wrong. __________________ http://www.dmvideostuff.co.nz

July 21st, 2008, 09:47 AM	#28
Mark Fry Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 425	Here's another vote for shooting and editing in HDV and only down-scaling right at the very end of the project. Shooting HDV and down-scaling in-camera will not be much better than shooting SD, with the XH-A1 and, I think, any other HDV camera. Choose your conversion software carefully, too, because they are not all the same. I use Avid Liquid, which is not bad, but I hear that Canopus ProCoder (stand-alone or as part of Edius) is the best of the bunch at the moment. Since you have an XH-A1, I think that's the best way to get good SD outputs from it. As for whether it's worth using an HDV camera if the end product is a regular DVD - some of my viewers say they see an improvement over my old XM1, while others don't. It's certainly no worse. I needed to replace the XM1, so went for HDV, since it does SD just as well as the old one and gives me wonderful HD as well. However, a friend faced with a similar choice went for another SD cam (VX2100 in his case) even though he has an HDTV. Horses for courses... __________________ Steam Age Pictures - videos in aid of railway preservation societies.

July 17th, 2008, 07:21 AM	#16
Kiflom Bahta Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 203	If it is premier, then how come it doesn't do the same with my dvx. I shot the same thing with both camera @ 30p but it only happen to the A1 footage. thx

July 17th, 2008, 07:25 AM	#17
Przemysław Pyrek New Boot Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Katowice Poland Posts: 11	Hi guys, i know that you all love A1, so do i - at least in HDV mode. This is simply how it works in SD, it's the same thing with mine. Shooting SD with A1 you always end up with a flickery and blurry footage. My advice is, save yourself trouble and shoot HDV or if you need SD on tape, shoot it with some other camera. Please guys, don't hurt me now... ;-)

July 17th, 2008, 07:41 AM	#18
Kiflom Bahta Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 203	This is a tough pill to swollow. I am not sold on the SD Vs HD issue. It also does it with the original AVI. Richard, can you repost the corrected the version. Thx

July 17th, 2008, 09:36 AM	#20
Kiflom Bahta Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 203	Hi Khoi, I used Steven's vivid to shoot this event with sharp set at 3. Why would sharpness would be ok in HD not SD?

July 17th, 2008, 02:13 PM	#22
Kiflom Bahta Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 203	I see no use in shooting HD if my client want SD. If they pay me for HD, I shoot HD. Anyways if this the case, I will be in Dallas on August 2nd for a shoot and i will be more than happy take to you to a stake house of your choice. (____)

July 17th, 2008, 11:48 PM	#23
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	In which case, you should shoot with an SD camera unless the client wants HD. I think the question was how to get the best SD result with your HD camera, and shooting HD and downconverting seems to be the prevalent answer

July 18th, 2008, 12:07 AM	#24
Brian David Melnyk Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Winnipeg Canada Posts: 532	i think, from what i've read here and also experienced, the 'use' in shooting and editing in HDV is that the final SD product is a better image, and you have more options in the future for output of the project (and the space required is the same as SD) . i relate it to recording audio at 24 bit 96 kHz when the final output is for a 16 bit 44.1 kHz CD (or MP3...). The end product is much richer. i''ve noticed a huge difference between 24 bit 96 kHz and 24 bit 44.1 kHz when converted to 16/44.1. Now i only record 24/96. so the question is: why use a match when you have a blowtorch? CHAOS theory emphasizes the 'critical dependence on initial conditions'. it's SCIENCE...ience...ience...ience...ience....(ience).

July 18th, 2008, 12:15 AM	#25
Brian David Melnyk Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Winnipeg Canada Posts: 532	i think, from what i've read here and also experienced, the 'use' in shooting and editing in HDV is that the final SD product is a better image, and you have more options in the future for output of the project (and the space required is the same as SD) . i relate it to recording audio at 24 bit 96 kHz when the final output is for a 16 bit 44.1 kHz CD (or MP3...). The end product is much richer. i''ve noticed a huge difference between 24 bit 96 kHz and 24 bit 44.1 kHz when converted to 16/44.1. Now i only record 24/96. so the question is: why use a match when you have a blowtorch? CHAOS theory emphasizes the 'critical dependence on initial conditions'. it's SCIENCE...ience...ience...ience...ience....(ience).

July 19th, 2008, 10:05 PM	#27
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	Here's the first half of the same clip, but rendered in 720P which is allocated a higher bitrate by Vimeo. http://www.vimeo.com/1372097 The artifacts are much reduced, so I believe that the compression is the main cause of the jittery lines. Having said that, I must add that I fully agree with the others, that you should shoot in HDV resolution with the XH-A1 and downres it later. You can even downconvert in camera while capturing to hard disk. This is not the best way of working, but I think it will give you better quality than shooting SD. And you will not even have to deal with m2t files at all, you just edit SD DV files as normal. Richard

July 22nd, 2008, 11:07 PM	#29
Kiflom Bahta Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 203	Hi guys, i am still trying figure this out. I know it is not vimeo or premier cuz it still does the same thing before capture. I also know it is not the preset or sharpness. I am very sure it is not SD Vs HD thingy. The A1 takes amazing SD, way better than my other SD camera's. So i willing to give $$$ for any body who can figure it out. Thank.

July 22nd, 2008, 11:59 PM	#30
Bill Busby Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 959	I just tried to look at this again & gave up with Vimeo. It's hard to judge anything qualitywise on that site. I did use the download link provided for the avi file & noticed something interesting. It's as if there are stationary vertical "slices" (maybe 15 or so, evenly spaced) that seems to be maybe a field or frame out of sync with every other "slice". These "slices" are very apparent on the last scene while panning & it gets to a busier background. Check it out. I've never seen this oddity before. It's as if some crappy, somewhat subtle digital effect has been applied. I would play this tape from the A1 if I were you & run this out to a monitor from your cam, preferably with component out. If it's not there then it's likely an error during your encoding process. If it IS there then I would contact Canon ASAP. edit This was observed while using QT. I just now, on a whim, opened it with Media Player & can't see the sliced stuff but it still looks horrible nonetheless.