XH-A1 question

Brett Daly · March 26th, 2008, 08:08 PM

Hi,

I'm glad I was told about this site, as I just purchased my A1 and a Steadicam Merlin last week. I can see there's a big learning curve ahead, but hopefully I'll pick things up quickly.

My question is regarding the 24F mode. I see that a lot of people seem to really like shooting in that mode, and I was looking forward to using it, but all I notice is quite a bit of jitter and a shimmering effect whenever I pan, and I've tried different shutter speeds. I don't have a progressive scan television, so is that one of the reasons? I also notice it in the 30F mode, but not as bad. The 60i mode is shimmer and jitter free, and I guess is probably what I'll have to use to tape sporting events or anything with lots of action, unless someone has a better idea for one of the other modes. Also, would a wide angle lens help to remove any of the jitter or shimmer, or would it just add to the problem. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Brett

Bryce Olejniczak · March 26th, 2008, 11:48 PM

For me, it looks a little jittery in the cameras LCD while shooting, but it clears up when I capture it on my computer.

Will Schryver · March 27th, 2008, 10:36 AM

There's a big difference between 24 progressive frames a second and 60 interlaced frames a second when it comes to motion/movement within those frames.

24f is not going to be well-adapted to anything containing considerable motion/movement -- especially if you're moving the camera (panning) as well.

Brett Daly · March 27th, 2008, 11:16 AM

Thanks for the responses guys, and Will, that's why I was curious as to why some people still seem to use that mode, even for action oriented shooting. Is it just to get the film look, and if so, is there a way in that mode to decrease the jitter and give it a smoother look? If not, is there a good film-like setting in the Vegas software that I could use on footage shot in 60i to give it a similar film appearance?

Brett

Will Mahoney · March 27th, 2008, 02:06 PM

Brett,
I shot the following in 30F and it seems pretty smooth. I'll certainly try a bit of 60 for my next event video, but this was my first one and I thought I'd give 30 frams a try. I'm pretty happy with it. (though I'm still working on the "finished piece.")

http://www.vimeo.com/809058

Also, I used the WD-H72 wide angle for handheld shots. That thing weighs a ton. I'm not exaggerating too much when I say that it must have doubled the weight of the camera. But, it helped with stability and really allowed me to get up-close and personal with the vehicles.

Jonas Nystrom · March 27th, 2008, 06:22 PM

Have you turned OIS off?

Brett Daly · March 27th, 2008, 08:01 PM

OIS is one of the first things I turned off in the camera when I got it, and also because I'm using, or should I say attempting to use the steadicam Merlin. :)
I guess I'll just have to play around with the settings, and then capture, edit, and render the video and see what happens. At the moment though, I guess it looks like 30f or 60i for action shots, which is kind of a bummer, as I was looking forward to using 24f.

Bill Pryor · March 27th, 2008, 08:06 PM

People have shot action shots for many years at 24 fps. You have to learn to use the mode, to not pan or tilt too fast. Don't knock it till you've tried it and have some experience.

Seun Osewa · April 2nd, 2008, 09:33 AM

Why would turning off the OIS make handheld shots smoother?? What's the OIS for then? Static tripod shots?

Bill Pryor · April 2nd, 2008, 11:30 AM

Just the opposite, leave it on for handheld, off for tripod use. Some people may have trouble with 24F because the camera defaults to a 1/24 shutter speed the first time you switch to 24F. The shutter speed needs to be 1/48.

Alex Humphrey · April 7th, 2008, 06:27 PM

24p or death. (24f)

Why? I don't like the look of interlaced video on DVD when I sell my final products. Most new TV's sold are LCD and Plasmas.. and they are progressive scan. nearly all DVD players sold in the last 5 years are progressive scan. Progressive scan is ONLY 60i video flagged for decoding 24p from a 24p original source. DVD players don't do a good job from a 30p source, hence I don't use 30p, though at home in the editing bay i like it more.

I tend to shoot even sports in 24p at 1/60th or even 1/100th. For narrative work I do 24p at 1/48th. I'm actually using a JVC HD110, but the process is still the same.

Wes Powell · April 8th, 2008, 12:22 PM

So here is my question about 24f....I just bought a A1 so go easy

I have FCP 5.0
It will capture 60i fine.
It wont recognize 24f.

I take the 24f footage to iMovie
It works fine.

So there has to be a codec missing or something right that FCP isnt getting. Is there anyway to get FCP to recognize 24f like iMovie does?

Bill Pryor · April 8th, 2008, 12:39 PM

FCP5.0 will not do Canon's 24f. You need 5.1.2 at least. For about a year there was a $49 upgrade from 5.0 to Universal, which was 5.1 , as I recall. Then when you installed that, it allowed you to download the free 5.1.2, and then 5.1.4 which was the last one before Studio 2 came out. I may have the numbers a little off there; you may need 5.1.4 for 24f, but I think it's 5.1.2. You might want to do some searching and see if that upgrade is still out there. If it is, it probably costs more now. And, you have to send in some of your discs, but not all; and then they send you replacement discs. That $49 upgrade was a major thing, and if you can still get it, I would highly recommend it.

Nick Weeks · April 9th, 2008, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

People have shot action shots for many years at 24 fps. You have to learn to use the mode, to not pan or tilt too fast. Don't knock it till you've tried it and have some experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

Just the opposite, leave it on for handheld, off for tripod use. Some people may have trouble with 24F because the camera defaults to a 1/24 shutter speed the first time you switch to 24F. The shutter speed needs to be 1/48.

I agree with Bill wholeheartedly on this. I was skeptical about 24F from the get-go... having the A1 for over a year and never really tried it other than the first time I got it. Now that I've learned a few techniques, I just shot a wedding love story video last weekend using 24F and I absolutely love the footage! You just have to suck it up and try it out... practice, practice, practice!

Same for the OIS, even in 24F mode. These cameras are too small to evenly distribute the shock when using them handheld and the OIS does a wonderful job of compensating for this. Now, if you're shooting some fast moving objects like race cars for example, the OIS tends to jitter a bit, so for some handheld situations you could probably disable it, but I always leave it on unless I'm on a glidecam or tripod.

Mike Flynn · April 9th, 2008, 12:12 PM

Sorry for the minor hijack here, but I have a few questions and would rather not start a new thread. Maybe other people can learn from my questions too!

I shoot lots of fast moving action sports (motocross) and was very unhappy with the slow motion I was getting from 30f (I can only imagine that 24f is worse). The reason I was shooting in 30f in the first place is because I don't like the "video-look" of 60i (don't we all?). Long story short, I switched to 60i this year for the sole purpose of getting better slow motion. Now that I have shot a few races and watched some footage on DVD and I have to say I really hate the look of 60i.

Is there is decent way to make 60i footage look more like 30f or 24f in post? Do I just render it in a 23.98 timeline? Even Motion's optical flow does a pretty crappy job on slowing down 30f (I get lots of warping). Magic Bullet Frames sounds promising, anyone have any experience with it?

My other question is, which FCP capture setting should I use for capturing footage that was shot in HDV 24f, but being downconverted in-camera to edit in anamorphic SD? Anamorphic 24p, or Advanced Pulldown Removal?

Thanks in advance for your advice and answers!

March 26th, 2008, 08:08 PM	#1
Brett Daly Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 28	XH-A1 question - 24F mode Hi, I'm glad I was told about this site, as I just purchased my A1 and a Steadicam Merlin last week. I can see there's a big learning curve ahead, but hopefully I'll pick things up quickly. My question is regarding the 24F mode. I see that a lot of people seem to really like shooting in that mode, and I was looking forward to using it, but all I notice is quite a bit of jitter and a shimmering effect whenever I pan, and I've tried different shutter speeds. I don't have a progressive scan television, so is that one of the reasons? I also notice it in the 30F mode, but not as bad. The 60i mode is shimmer and jitter free, and I guess is probably what I'll have to use to tape sporting events or anything with lots of action, unless someone has a better idea for one of the other modes. Also, would a wide angle lens help to remove any of the jitter or shimmer, or would it just add to the problem. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, Brett

March 27th, 2008, 02:06 PM	#5
Will Mahoney Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 259	I shot this in 30F Brett, I shot the following in 30F and it seems pretty smooth. I'll certainly try a bit of 60 for my next event video, but this was my first one and I thought I'd give 30 frams a try. I'm pretty happy with it. (though I'm still working on the "finished piece.") http://www.vimeo.com/809058 Also, I used the WD-H72 wide angle for handheld shots. That thing weighs a ton. I'm not exaggerating too much when I say that it must have doubled the weight of the camera. But, it helped with stability and really allowed me to get up-close and personal with the vehicles. __________________ http://exposureroom.com/members/WillMahoney.aspx/ www.youtube.com/truckaccessories

March 27th, 2008, 06:22 PM	#6
Jonas Nystrom Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 306	Have you turned OIS off? __________________ Jonas Nyström, DoP :: HOT SHOT® SWEDEN :: www.hotshot.nu :: RED #1567, RED 18-50mm T3 :: XL A1, Letus Extreme :: XL H1, 20X & 6X lens (for sale) :: www.vimeo.com/nystrom

March 26th, 2008, 11:48 PM	#2
Bryce Olejniczak Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Marquette, MI Posts: 65	For me, it looks a little jittery in the cameras LCD while shooting, but it clears up when I capture it on my computer.

March 27th, 2008, 10:36 AM	#3
Will Schryver Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Cedar City, UT Posts: 60	There's a big difference between 24 progressive frames a second and 60 interlaced frames a second when it comes to motion/movement within those frames. 24f is not going to be well-adapted to anything containing considerable motion/movement -- especially if you're moving the camera (panning) as well.

March 27th, 2008, 11:16 AM	#4
Brett Daly Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 28	Thanks for the responses guys, and Will, that's why I was curious as to why some people still seem to use that mode, even for action oriented shooting. Is it just to get the film look, and if so, is there a way in that mode to decrease the jitter and give it a smoother look? If not, is there a good film-like setting in the Vegas software that I could use on footage shot in 60i to give it a similar film appearance? Brett

March 27th, 2008, 08:01 PM	#7
Brett Daly Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 28	OIS is one of the first things I turned off in the camera when I got it, and also because I'm using, or should I say attempting to use the steadicam Merlin. :) I guess I'll just have to play around with the settings, and then capture, edit, and render the video and see what happens. At the moment though, I guess it looks like 30f or 60i for action shots, which is kind of a bummer, as I was looking forward to using 24f.

March 27th, 2008, 08:06 PM	#8
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	People have shot action shots for many years at 24 fps. You have to learn to use the mode, to not pan or tilt too fast. Don't knock it till you've tried it and have some experience.

April 2nd, 2008, 09:33 AM	#9
Seun Osewa Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: West Africa Posts: 255	Why would turning off the OIS make handheld shots smoother?? What's the OIS for then? Static tripod shots?

April 2nd, 2008, 11:30 AM	#10
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Just the opposite, leave it on for handheld, off for tripod use. Some people may have trouble with 24F because the camera defaults to a 1/24 shutter speed the first time you switch to 24F. The shutter speed needs to be 1/48.

April 7th, 2008, 06:27 PM	#11
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	24p or death. (24f) Why? I don't like the look of interlaced video on DVD when I sell my final products. Most new TV's sold are LCD and Plasmas.. and they are progressive scan. nearly all DVD players sold in the last 5 years are progressive scan. Progressive scan is ONLY 60i video flagged for decoding 24p from a 24p original source. DVD players don't do a good job from a 30p source, hence I don't use 30p, though at home in the editing bay i like it more. I tend to shoot even sports in 24p at 1/60th or even 1/100th. For narrative work I do 24p at 1/48th. I'm actually using a JVC HD110, but the process is still the same.

April 8th, 2008, 12:22 PM	#12
Wes Powell Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Kennesaw, GA Posts: 26	So here is my question about 24f....I just bought a A1 so go easy I have FCP 5.0 It will capture 60i fine. It wont recognize 24f. I take the 24f footage to iMovie It works fine. So there has to be a codec missing or something right that FCP isnt getting. Is there anyway to get FCP to recognize 24f like iMovie does?

April 8th, 2008, 12:39 PM	#13
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	FCP5.0 will not do Canon's 24f. You need 5.1.2 at least. For about a year there was a $49 upgrade from 5.0 to Universal, which was 5.1 , as I recall. Then when you installed that, it allowed you to download the free 5.1.2, and then 5.1.4 which was the last one before Studio 2 came out. I may have the numbers a little off there; you may need 5.1.4 for 24f, but I think it's 5.1.2. You might want to do some searching and see if that upgrade is still out there. If it is, it probably costs more now. And, you have to send in some of your discs, but not all; and then they send you replacement discs. That $49 upgrade was a major thing, and if you can still get it, I would highly recommend it.

April 9th, 2008, 12:12 PM	#15
Mike Flynn Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 94	Sorry for the minor hijack here, but I have a few questions and would rather not start a new thread. Maybe other people can learn from my questions too! I shoot lots of fast moving action sports (motocross) and was very unhappy with the slow motion I was getting from 30f (I can only imagine that 24f is worse). The reason I was shooting in 30f in the first place is because I don't like the "video-look" of 60i (don't we all?). Long story short, I switched to 60i this year for the sole purpose of getting better slow motion. Now that I have shot a few races and watched some footage on DVD and I have to say I really hate the look of 60i. Is there is decent way to make 60i footage look more like 30f or 24f in post? Do I just render it in a 23.98 timeline? Even Motion's optical flow does a pretty crappy job on slowing down 30f (I get lots of warping). Magic Bullet Frames sounds promising, anyone have any experience with it? My other question is, which FCP capture setting should I use for capturing footage that was shot in HDV 24f, but being downconverted in-camera to edit in anamorphic SD? Anamorphic 24p, or Advanced Pulldown Removal? Thanks in advance for your advice and answers!