TrueColor configuration for XH A1

Bill Grant · March 22nd, 2008, 10:30 PM

You know, it's interesting to me. I would be freaked out completely if I came home from a wedding with that footage in any capacity. But I think that once I messed with it in post, it might yeild acceptable results. I am scared to death because I have a wedding next weekend which is the first of 10 in a row that I am going to need to shoot with this cam, and I just don't know where I'm going with it yet. I have had it for 3 weeks, and this is as far as I have gotten... gulp.
Bill

Doug Lange · March 23rd, 2008, 01:04 AM

Great test footage, Bill!

Let's hope the bride doesn't do any jumping jacks;-) Were you shooting progressive? With everything moving slowly in a wedding, would you consider shooting 24p (24f) with 1/48 or even 1/24? The HV20 would cut in well in 24p, too.

I agree that raising blacks should improve the low light situations. Bill, it's hard to tell how underexposed some of the shots are. Instead of using a high gain setting, try bringing the levels up in your NLE. Let us know how it works for you.

I was surprised how similar the HV20 full auto compared to TrueColor. I've done too much color correcting trying to get my HV20 and XH A1 to match, especially under tungsten.

I forgot why everyone in Alaska has a wedding anniversary during the last 2 weeks in June until I watched your video, Bill. I never see green grass and leaves until June 15! Although The World Ice Art Championships have concluded, the ice sculptures haven't melted yet.

Good luck on your wedding season!

Peter Jefferson · March 23rd, 2008, 04:21 AM

So which preset is the one without the blue cast?

Also, just wondering if anyone has tried this on skintones?

Bill Grant · March 23rd, 2008, 07:24 AM

WEll,
I brought in those clips into Vegas and raised the levels, and lowered the blacks. The Truecolor went grain crazy, where the first 2 settings which are optimized with NR settings adjusted very well. I need to sort this all out before next weekend. Gulp.
Bill

Lonnie Bell · March 23rd, 2008, 07:26 AM

Which clips wedding stuff or lowlight?

Bill Grant · March 23rd, 2008, 07:39 AM

lowlight...

Christopher Neville · March 23rd, 2008, 07:48 AM

I had gone out two days ago to check out some waterfalls. I did a little shooting there to see how the TrueColor preset looked to me. I had done some test shooting with it the day before outside my house, but I wanted a more natural seeing to see what I thought. At the falls, I used "FACTORY", "AC PREF1", "PANALOOK", and "TrueColor" with no filters except built-in ND and manual white balance.

After I got back from the falls, I reviewed the footage and noticed the the TrueColor did unfortunately have a slight blue cast. The waterfall had a more blue cast than the other presets, but more telling were the greens. The leaves just weren't right, they looked more green-blue. While we were there, I got my wife to take some images with her Canon XTi for comparison. These were a reference for the color. So between our memory and the images from the SLR, I feel that the blue is defiantly the thing that is off.

I think the preset could be very good and accurate if the blue cast effect and blacks could be worked out. I will readily admit that I don't have the knowledge to do this, but would hope that someone who had the skills and time would tackle this preset. It is just so close to being a new standard. I really like idea of having a workflow that allows me to capture the footage neutrally, then give it the look I want in post. I have used "VIVIDRGB" in the past (with a lower color gain), but I've come to think it looks artificial. At this time "PANALOOK" is preset I find is the most useful for now, but I think that a neutral preset would be the best. As a side note, I do not believe "FACTORY" is neutral. Overall it looks too warm to me.

Lonnie Bell · March 23rd, 2008, 08:00 AM

Personal taste, but I think 12db is too noisy to begin with. And then trying to CC it in post showing mucho grain doesn't surprise me...

May I suggest going back to your den where you shot "lowlight", turn on your practicals (tv and what not) and just try comparing 3db and 6db with TrueColor.

Then do the same test with True Color but adjust the blacks so they are not quite so pressed (less Black). Yes it will still be darker than the VX, but I think the colors are way more more full and rich than the VX, and "it is an accurate image of a dark den". But now with almost no noise.

Just my opinion - Lonnie

Lonnie Bell · March 23rd, 2008, 08:05 AM

There was an admitted error on the True Color setting, there's been suggestions on what to change to correct the "blue". And even Steven Dempsey, author of Vividrgb noticed the blacks are too crushed.

I personally think somewhere between True and Vivid lies a great lowlight solution with only 3db of gain that'll still be cinematic and full of non-noisy rich colors...

Lonnie Bell · March 23rd, 2008, 08:47 AM

Dennis,
Tomorrow is my day to put the A1 through some lowlight tests, but I have a technical question... when you are adjusting presets in the camera menu's, and while hooked up to a monitor or computer (on Location), do you get instant realtime feedback with each click of an adjustment?

and if so, i'm assuming most single clicks within a parameter are so subtle, you probably have to go from one extreme to the other just to see what you are looking for (or what this particular button is adjusting) to begin with... is this accurate or make sense?

thanks,
Lonnie

Bill Busby · March 23rd, 2008, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone

Bill, check your WB again and the settings, there is no blue cast in TC, it's made to be as neutral as possible.

Let me know...

Paolo, the only way I've found to get a correct WB with this preset is to use a warm card... well of course short of tweaking the preset, which I may do once I can find the time.

It seems others have encountered the slight blue cast as well. So I know it's not my eyes getting funky :)

Rajiv Attingal · March 23rd, 2008, 09:23 AM

Yes you get real time changes on your monitor

rajiv

Lonnie Bell · March 23rd, 2008, 09:29 AM

Thank you Rajiv... yes I just started playing a little more seriously and I realized while you look at the menu of parameter preset changes, then select one to adjust, the camera intentionally loses the menu grid, so you can view the changes on the little lcd while adjusting... good stuff!

Now to hook it up to a larger monitor and play :)

Thanks for getting back,
Lonnie

Pat Reddy · March 23rd, 2008, 10:40 AM

I don't really know what I am doing with this yet or whether I have compromised the goal of Truecolor by trying this, but setting white balance to 6000 K certainly gets rid of the blue bias. The granite cliffs, pines, and late winter colors outside my window end up looking pretty good.

Pat

Dennis Wood · March 23rd, 2008, 10:12 PM

First of all guys, make sure that you check your preset because it was corrected a day after being posted. Pat, setting white balance to 6000K on a sunny day with blue sky sounds about right where it should be. White balance using a DSC chart is as accurate as it gets, so Paolo's WB was almost certainly correct during testing. This showed in my own tests with the Ambi2 where I white balanced to the rear projection screen itself (about 3200K). The blacks in this preset are crushed, and I have not attempted to pull detail in post....there is some room there for tweaking for sure.

Connecting the camera to a monitor is a great way to play with presets, but don't forget that dynamic contrast and calibration are important. Using a program like OnLocation (on one of the newer 1920x1200 pixel laptops) which displays color bars and has a blue function will allow you to calibrate the display reasonably well.

Bill, my one suggestion would be to check with Patrick Moreau over at stillmotion.ca as they've been using 2 or 3 XH-A1s extensively over the last year for primarily wedding work. They've got a long list of awards using the XH-A1 with our Brevis adapter. The XH-A1 in low light is noisy and is at 12db, in my opinion, terrible. Definitely look at using NR1 in your preset, or adding it to this one. It will have no effect at all on color, exposure, or WB. Don't use NR2 unless your subjects are motionless.

March 23rd, 2008, 01:04 AM	#47
Doug Lange Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 138	Great test footage, Bill! Let's hope the bride doesn't do any jumping jacks;-) Were you shooting progressive? With everything moving slowly in a wedding, would you consider shooting 24p (24f) with 1/48 or even 1/24? The HV20 would cut in well in 24p, too. I agree that raising blacks should improve the low light situations. Bill, it's hard to tell how underexposed some of the shots are. Instead of using a high gain setting, try bringing the levels up in your NLE. Let us know how it works for you. I was surprised how similar the HV20 full auto compared to TrueColor. I've done too much color correcting trying to get my HV20 and XH A1 to match, especially under tungsten. I forgot why everyone in Alaska has a wedding anniversary during the last 2 weeks in June until I watched your video, Bill. I never see green grass and leaves until June 15! Although The World Ice Art Championships have concluded, the ice sculptures haven't melted yet. Good luck on your wedding season! __________________ After years of lurking, I finally made the mistake of opening my mouth.

March 23rd, 2008, 07:26 AM	#50
Lonnie Bell Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV United States Posts: 361	Which clips wedding stuff or lowlight? __________________ Lonnie Bell mamas boy productions Las Vegas, NV

March 23rd, 2008, 07:48 AM	#52
Christopher Neville Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 57	TrueColor outdoors I had gone out two days ago to check out some waterfalls. I did a little shooting there to see how the TrueColor preset looked to me. I had done some test shooting with it the day before outside my house, but I wanted a more natural seeing to see what I thought. At the falls, I used "FACTORY", "AC PREF1", "PANALOOK", and "TrueColor" with no filters except built-in ND and manual white balance. After I got back from the falls, I reviewed the footage and noticed the the TrueColor did unfortunately have a slight blue cast. The waterfall had a more blue cast than the other presets, but more telling were the greens. The leaves just weren't right, they looked more green-blue. While we were there, I got my wife to take some images with her Canon XTi for comparison. These were a reference for the color. So between our memory and the images from the SLR, I feel that the blue is defiantly the thing that is off. I think the preset could be very good and accurate if the blue cast effect and blacks could be worked out. I will readily admit that I don't have the knowledge to do this, but would hope that someone who had the skills and time would tackle this preset. It is just so close to being a new standard. I really like idea of having a workflow that allows me to capture the footage neutrally, then give it the look I want in post. I have used "VIVIDRGB" in the past (with a lower color gain), but I've come to think it looks artificial. At this time "PANALOOK" is preset I find is the most useful for now, but I think that a neutral preset would be the best. As a side note, I do not believe "FACTORY" is neutral. Overall it looks too warm to me.

March 23rd, 2008, 08:00 AM	#53
Lonnie Bell Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV United States Posts: 361	Personal taste, but I think 12db is too noisy to begin with. And then trying to CC it in post showing mucho grain doesn't surprise me... May I suggest going back to your den where you shot "lowlight", turn on your practicals (tv and what not) and just try comparing 3db and 6db with TrueColor. Then do the same test with True Color but adjust the blacks so they are not quite so pressed (less Black). Yes it will still be darker than the VX, but I think the colors are way more more full and rich than the VX, and "it is an accurate image of a dark den". But now with almost no noise. Just my opinion - Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Bell mamas boy productions Las Vegas, NV

March 23rd, 2008, 08:05 AM	#54
Lonnie Bell Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV United States Posts: 361	There was an admitted error on the True Color setting, there's been suggestions on what to change to correct the "blue". And even Steven Dempsey, author of Vividrgb noticed the blacks are too crushed. I personally think somewhere between True and Vivid lies a great lowlight solution with only 3db of gain that'll still be cinematic and full of non-noisy rich colors... __________________ Lonnie Bell mamas boy productions Las Vegas, NV

March 22nd, 2008, 10:30 PM	#46
Bill Grant Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Columbia,SC Posts: 806	You know, it's interesting to me. I would be freaked out completely if I came home from a wedding with that footage in any capacity. But I think that once I messed with it in post, it might yeild acceptable results. I am scared to death because I have a wedding next weekend which is the first of 10 in a row that I am going to need to shoot with this cam, and I just don't know where I'm going with it yet. I have had it for 3 weeks, and this is as far as I have gotten... gulp. Bill

March 23rd, 2008, 04:21 AM	#48
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	So which preset is the one without the blue cast? Also, just wondering if anyone has tried this on skintones?

March 23rd, 2008, 07:24 AM	#49
Bill Grant Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Columbia,SC Posts: 806	WEll, I brought in those clips into Vegas and raised the levels, and lowered the blacks. The Truecolor went grain crazy, where the first 2 settings which are optimized with NR settings adjusted very well. I need to sort this all out before next weekend. Gulp. Bill

March 23rd, 2008, 07:39 AM	#51
Bill Grant Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Columbia,SC Posts: 806	lowlight...

March 23rd, 2008, 08:47 AM	#55
Lonnie Bell Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV United States Posts: 361	Dennis, Tomorrow is my day to put the A1 through some lowlight tests, but I have a technical question... when you are adjusting presets in the camera menu's, and while hooked up to a monitor or computer (on Location), do you get instant realtime feedback with each click of an adjustment? and if so, i'm assuming most single clicks within a parameter are so subtle, you probably have to go from one extreme to the other just to see what you are looking for (or what this particular button is adjusting) to begin with... is this accurate or make sense? thanks, Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Bell mamas boy productions Las Vegas, NV

March 23rd, 2008, 09:23 AM	#57
Rajiv Attingal Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Kerala, India Posts: 95	Yes you get real time changes on your monitor rajiv

March 23rd, 2008, 09:29 AM	#58
Lonnie Bell Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV United States Posts: 361	Thank you Rajiv... yes I just started playing a little more seriously and I realized while you look at the menu of parameter preset changes, then select one to adjust, the camera intentionally loses the menu grid, so you can view the changes on the little lcd while adjusting... good stuff! Now to hook it up to a larger monitor and play :) Thanks for getting back, Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Bell mamas boy productions Las Vegas, NV

March 23rd, 2008, 10:40 AM	#59
Pat Reddy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 288	I don't really know what I am doing with this yet or whether I have compromised the goal of Truecolor by trying this, but setting white balance to 6000 K certainly gets rid of the blue bias. The granite cliffs, pines, and late winter colors outside my window end up looking pretty good. Pat

March 23rd, 2008, 10:12 PM	#60
Dennis Wood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 916	First of all guys, make sure that you check your preset because it was corrected a day after being posted. Pat, setting white balance to 6000K on a sunny day with blue sky sounds about right where it should be. White balance using a DSC chart is as accurate as it gets, so Paolo's WB was almost certainly correct during testing. This showed in my own tests with the Ambi2 where I white balanced to the rear projection screen itself (about 3200K). The blacks in this preset are crushed, and I have not attempted to pull detail in post....there is some room there for tweaking for sure. Connecting the camera to a monitor is a great way to play with presets, but don't forget that dynamic contrast and calibration are important. Using a program like OnLocation (on one of the newer 1920x1200 pixel laptops) which displays color bars and has a blue function will allow you to calibrate the display reasonably well. Bill, my one suggestion would be to check with Patrick Moreau over at stillmotion.ca as they've been using 2 or 3 XH-A1s extensively over the last year for primarily wedding work. They've got a long list of awards using the XH-A1 with our Brevis adapter. The XH-A1 in low light is noisy and is at 12db, in my opinion, terrible. Definitely look at using NR1 in your preset, or adding it to this one. It will have no effect at all on color, exposure, or WB. Don't use NR2 unless your subjects are motionless.