Mixing framerate on same tape? ok? at DVinfo.net

Nick Mitzenmacher · January 31st, 2008, 12:43 PM

Hey guys
Ive had my Canon A1 for a couple months now and i've been shooting here and there with it, trying to get used to all the manual features on it.
Pretty fun learning all the features about it.

I had a question though.
Is it alright to mix framerates on a tape?

for example, i was messing around with it the other day testing some stuff out, and i started out shoooting 60i, then about 10 min later, i switched over to 24f.

Will this cause any problems when i go to capture? or dropouts or anything?

Melvin Torrens · January 31st, 2008, 12:53 PM

Not a good idea mixing framerates on the same tape, you would have to switch capture presets in you're NLE to capture at the correct rate.

Daniel Vanniekerk · January 31st, 2008, 12:59 PM

Not a good idea.
I have experienced disk problems (Apple iMac with 750Gb external firewire drive) when trying to capture mixed frame rates.

Marco Wagner · January 31st, 2008, 01:37 PM

Forgive me but isn't 24f on a canon still 60i?

Christian Nachtrieb · January 31st, 2008, 03:52 PM

Yea but when you go to capture 24f you do use the Easy Setup: HDV108024p as opposed to if you're capturing 60i footage you use the Easy Setup: HDV108060i.

Basically you have to reload the setup each time your frame rate changes. It's better to keep all the same frame rates on one tape. I just realized this and yea it's a big pain in the but to have to keep switching back and forth.

Kellen Dengler · January 31st, 2008, 04:38 PM

I'm confused as to how 60i and 24F could be the same thing? Isn't 60i interlaced and 24F progressive?

Marco Wagner · January 31st, 2008, 05:00 PM

24F is Canon's "fake 24p". From what I understand, and someone jump in here if I'm wrong, it still gets put onto tape at 60i. In your NLE, when capturing, you use pulldown conversion to get 24p.

Henry Cho · January 31st, 2008, 05:25 PM

there is no pulldown with 24f. 24f is, for all intents and purposes, 24 frames progressive, and is put to tape as such.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=74964

Marco Wagner · January 31st, 2008, 05:42 PM

Dangit! Wish I was told the "Correct" info when I had my XL1S, LOL... Cineframe 24 is 24p? hmmmmm....

Bill Pryor · January 31st, 2008, 08:55 PM

The frame mode of the XL1s was not the same as the 24 frame HDV mode of the current cameras. You don't get the softening and noise, for one thing. This subject has been beat to death in a zillion posts on here, and Canon has a white paper on it.

Don Palomaki · February 1st, 2008, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Is it alright to mix framerates on a tape?

As note above, It can make your work flow more difficult, so most will recommend against the practice. But if you have to, you have to. So if it works for you, go for it ....but give it a test first before you do it on an important project, especially one with tight deadlines.

Pete Bauer · February 1st, 2008, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Wagner

24F is Canon's "fake 24p". From what I understand, and someone jump in here if I'm wrong, it still gets put onto tape at 60i. In your NLE, when capturing, you use pulldown conversion to get 24p.

I'll jump in. The consumer cams (eg Vixia HV20 or HV30) do use pulldown to record their 24p but the XL and XH cameras use Frame Mode for 24F, 25F, and 30F. The signal is encoded entirely progressively in F Mode. As has been discussed ad nauseum, the only thing not entirely progressive about F Mode is that the part number of the CCD is that of an interlaced chip, but Canon say they've modded it so all 1080 lines are read at the same instant. CANON FRAME MODE IS NOT "FAKE" progressive. It is progressive.

Anyway, if you put long leaders/handles on your footage, you can put footage of different frame rates on a tape and as long as you don't try to capture across the break point, it should be ok. But that's a bother I think most of us would avoid. As with the other folks who have responded, I just don't do it.

Mark Rook · February 1st, 2008, 12:57 PM

I've shot at 25p and 50i on the same tape simply as a test between the two and it worked fine using Sony Vegas 8 Pro.

Mark

Nick Mitzenmacher · February 2nd, 2008, 05:23 AM

thanks for all the responses guys.

i figured there wouldn't be any problems mixing framerates on a tape, but there would be just the hassle of switching settings when capturing to the footage.

Steve Yager · February 2nd, 2008, 11:34 AM

Yeah, Nick, I've done it, but only if I'm shooting half and half, so I'm not constantly switching back and forth. And like someone else said, put a lot of leader and tail between the footage, meaning give like 5-10 seconds between the different frame rates.

January 31st, 2008, 12:43 PM	#1
Nick Mitzenmacher New Boot Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ontario, CA Posts: 9	Mixing framerate on same tape? ok? Hey guys Ive had my Canon A1 for a couple months now and i've been shooting here and there with it, trying to get used to all the manual features on it. Pretty fun learning all the features about it. I had a question though. Is it alright to mix framerates on a tape? for example, i was messing around with it the other day testing some stuff out, and i started out shoooting 60i, then about 10 min later, i switched over to 24f. Will this cause any problems when i go to capture? or dropouts or anything?

January 31st, 2008, 01:37 PM	#4
Marco Wagner Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Saint Cloud, Florida Posts: 1,043	Forgive me but isn't 24f on a canon still 60i? __________________ www.facebook.com/projectspecto

January 31st, 2008, 05:00 PM	#7
Marco Wagner Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Saint Cloud, Florida Posts: 1,043	24F is Canon's "fake 24p". From what I understand, and someone jump in here if I'm wrong, it still gets put onto tape at 60i. In your NLE, when capturing, you use pulldown conversion to get 24p. __________________ www.facebook.com/projectspecto

January 31st, 2008, 05:42 PM	#9
Marco Wagner Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Saint Cloud, Florida Posts: 1,043	Dangit! Wish I was told the "Correct" info when I had my XL1S, LOL... Cineframe 24 is 24p? hmmmmm.... __________________ www.facebook.com/projectspecto

January 31st, 2008, 12:53 PM	#2
Melvin Torrens Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Spain Posts: 46	Not a good idea mixing framerates on the same tape, you would have to switch capture presets in you're NLE to capture at the correct rate.

January 31st, 2008, 12:59 PM	#3
Daniel Vanniekerk New Boot Join Date: May 2007 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa Posts: 20	Not a good idea. I have experienced disk problems (Apple iMac with 750Gb external firewire drive) when trying to capture mixed frame rates.

January 31st, 2008, 03:52 PM	#5
Christian Nachtrieb Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 65	Yea but when you go to capture 24f you do use the Easy Setup: HDV108024p as opposed to if you're capturing 60i footage you use the Easy Setup: HDV108060i. Basically you have to reload the setup each time your frame rate changes. It's better to keep all the same frame rates on one tape. I just realized this and yea it's a big pain in the but to have to keep switching back and forth.

January 31st, 2008, 04:38 PM	#6
Kellen Dengler Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: New York, NY Posts: 118	I'm confused as to how 60i and 24F could be the same thing? Isn't 60i interlaced and 24F progressive?

January 31st, 2008, 05:25 PM	#8
Henry Cho Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 516	there is no pulldown with 24f. 24f is, for all intents and purposes, 24 frames progressive, and is put to tape as such. http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=74964

January 31st, 2008, 08:55 PM	#10
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	The frame mode of the XL1s was not the same as the 24 frame HDV mode of the current cameras. You don't get the softening and noise, for one thing. This subject has been beat to death in a zillion posts on here, and Canon has a white paper on it.

February 1st, 2008, 12:57 PM	#13
Mark Rook Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Aberystwyth, Wales, UK Posts: 91	I've shot at 25p and 50i on the same tape simply as a test between the two and it worked fine using Sony Vegas 8 Pro. Mark

February 2nd, 2008, 05:23 AM	#14
Nick Mitzenmacher New Boot Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ontario, CA Posts: 9	thanks for all the responses guys. i figured there wouldn't be any problems mixing framerates on a tape, but there would be just the hassle of switching settings when capturing to the footage.

February 2nd, 2008, 11:34 AM	#15
Steve Yager Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 157	Yeah, Nick, I've done it, but only if I'm shooting half and half, so I'm not constantly switching back and forth. And like someone else said, put a lot of leader and tail between the footage, meaning give like 5-10 seconds between the different frame rates.