HDV Deck compatible with A1 "frame" recording

[Brandon Freeman]

I don't have experience with Canon 24f in Sony decks, but I can tell you that Canon 24f is not wrapped in a 60i stream. It is actually a 24 fps .m2t file. No pulldown.

[Bill Pryor]

This has been discussed a zillion times. It is, indeed, true 24p, though it's derived from interlace chips. When you play back an HDV 24F shot you get 24 frames in every second--no pulldown, no interlacing. It is progressive. It will NOT play in anything but the Canon HDV cameras. The consumer ones, ie., the HV10 and HV20 will play 24F even if they don't record it (just as Sony's consumer cams will play DVCAM even though they don't record it).

If you capture your 24p footage with a wrong setting, in FCP for example, or drop it into a timeline that is not 23.98, then you will introduce a pulldown because FCP will do that for you.That is not something you want to do--if using FCP, capture in 1080P24 HDV and edit in 23.98 HDV timeline.

If you shoot Standard Definition video instead of HDV, THEN you have the choice of real 24p or pulldown 24p, just like the DVX100 and XL2 cameras do. HDV is only 24p, 30p and 60i.

[Bill Edmunds]

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

This has been discussed a zillion times. It is, indeed, true 24p, though it's derived from interlace chips. When you play back an HDV 24F shot you get 24 frames in every second--no pulldown, no interlacing. It is progressive. It will NOT play in anything but the Canon HDV cameras.

That's really bizarre. If it is true 24p, I wonder what's different about the way it's recorded when compared to the JVC HD100? I assume the JVC HDV deck can't play it either? And even the Sony can't play 30f through its analog outputs? Gotta wonder why Canon hasn't produced a deck of their own.

[Bill Pryor]

The JVC is 720p and it won't play on anything but a JVC deck. Presumably the Sony version of 24p won't play on anything but Sony. The manufacturers don't necessarily design stuff to make your life pleasant--they design to make more money. The fact that Canon has no deck works to keep it out of more professional applications, in my experience. I know of more than one studio using larger cameras who say they could easily go with a couple of XL H1s and XH A1s rather than replacing bigger more expensive cameras, but without a deck that plays 24p, it's out of the question. You can't have a little consumer camera sitting there for capturing footage with a client looking over your shoulder. It's too awkward and cumbersome and slow. I wouldn't buy them for the company I edit for because of that--we need decks. For indy things and personal documentary work, etc., it's fine, however, just a little cumbersome and not very elegant.

[Bill Edmunds]

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

The JVC is 720p and it won't play on anything but a JVC deck. Presumably the Sony version of 24p won't play on anything but Sony.

The JVC and Sony stuff are 'interchangeable', but only through the analog outputs. That's why I was wondering if the Canon 30f stuff would work via component outputs on the Sony or JVC.

[Steve Wolla]

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

The JVC is 720p and it won't play on anything but a JVC deck. Presumably the Sony version of 24p won't play on anything but Sony. The manufacturers don't necessarily design stuff to make your life pleasant--they design to make more money. The fact that Canon has no deck works to keep it out of more professional applications, in my experience. I know of more than one studio using larger cameras who say they could easily go with a couple of XL H1s and XH A1s rather than replacing bigger more expensive cameras, but without a deck that plays 24p, it's out of the question. You can't have a little consumer camera sitting there for capturing footage with a client looking over your shoulder. It's too awkward and cumbersome and slow. I wouldn't buy them for the company I edit for because of that--we need decks. For indy things and personal documentary work, etc., it's fine, however, just a little cumbersome and not very elegant.

For 24f, would it be possible to dub from the Canon playing 24f or whatever, to the Sony/Panny/JVC deck of your choice , and then use the dub to capture to your computer.
I know it adds an addition process step, and somewhat of a pain but you would have a robust deck that clients would be OK with, and that would be more durable than using an HV20, or HV10, as good as they are. I am thinking of picking up a Sony HVR-15 as I shoot mostly 60i for now, but would do the dubbing routine to handle 24f. Does that sound work-able to you?

[Bill Pryor]

Probably not. I doubt the deck can convert Canon's 24F signal. Anyway, it wouldn't be a time saver.

[Chris Hurd]

Agree w/Bill. And I don't think durability is an issue with the little Canon HV10 or HV20.

Save the step and just use it to get Canon Frame mode into your computer.

[Blake Calhoun]

Buy a Firestore drive and skip the whole tape deck thing (for capture anyway). The Firestore is cheaper than a deck too.

[Gary Barr]

Just following on from this, if you shoot 25F on an A1 and 25P on a HV20, digitise it all in with a HV10, and work in a HDV 25P1080 FCP timeline (using the easy setup), how do you get your finished work back out to tape if that's what you want to do for archival or whatever?

Neither my HV10 or HV20 will take it in when set progressive (it's all choppy and stop start) but work fine at the 1080i playout settings. Will the footage be ok and progessive at the interlace settings? i.e. still 25F progressive? Or do I need to use an A1 as a deck too for playouts?

thanks for any pointers.

[Justin Ferar]

Just returned back from a 3 camera shoot. 2 cameras were JVC HD200's 720p60 while the third was Canon A1 1080i60.

We have the BRHD50 for the JVC footage but I need to buy something that will allow me to digitize the Canon. Whatever I buy I would like it to be able to playback ALL of Canon's formats. I've heard that I can just pick up a Canon consumer camcorder and use it as a feeder deck. Is this true? Looking online it looks as though the HV10 would serve this purpose.

I apologize if this post comes up a lot but I did search and didn't find anything obvious.

Thanks Canon people!

[Chris Hurd]

Your choices are the Canon HV10 and HV20 consumer HDV camcorders.

[Justin Ferar]

Thanks Chris. Looks like the HV20 has HDMI which would suit my Intensity Pro.

Next thing to do is figure out which format to edit in (720p or 1080i). I'll be testing the Intensity Pro's cross conversion capabilities vs. FCP's mixed timeline options.

Lot's of testing to do!

[Jeff Kellam]

Justin:

I just edited a piece using both a JVC GR-HD1 (720P30) and XH-A1 (1080i60).

I worked the project as 1440X1080i as my destination was 1080i60 for HD-DVD players and most footage was from the XH-A1s.

Using Sony Vegas 8a, the 720P footage scaled in extremely well and the final result was great at 1080i. It was a little tough to color/sharpness match the two videos, as the A1 settings were a little over the top.

Bottom line, they work well together.

720P is 18k bit rate and 1080i is 25k bit rate. You have smaller files and final product using the 720P.

[Justin Ferar]

Jeff, thanks for the reply.

Thus far I have pretty much stayed at 720p which has been producing absolutely stunning 480p standard def DVD's as well as 720p HD DVD's which is why I'm tempted to edit in 720p (I know the workflow so well). I hope the 1080i footage looks good enough when cross converted to 720p. Unfortunately everything I've read so far says that it's easier to cross convert 720p to 1080i.

We shall see.

Anybody else producing 480p DVD's from 1080i source? Wonder how that looks.