HDV Deck compatible with A1 "frame" recording

Richard Hunter · August 15th, 2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andris Krastins

Thank you for the information, but it's quite an expensive solution if all you need is a deck. :(
I recently bought A1 and have been looking for a deck device.

Hi Andris. How much were you expecting to pay for a deck? Usually they are a lot more expensive than the HV10 or HV20.

Richard

Bill Busby · August 15th, 2007, 04:34 PM

The only issue I have with the HV10 as a deck is it's slow transport response, but that's expected since it wasn't designed to be a deck in the 1st place.

Bill

Bill Pryor · August 15th, 2007, 04:59 PM

Yeah, that's my major complaint about not having a deck--slow and cumbersome. However, I've sort of changed my workflow to compensate for that. Instead of logging and capturing specific shots, I just grab the whole tape, and FCP divides it into its separate clips, and I label them after capture. This would be impractical on shows where there are many takes of specific scenes and I only want to load the good ones, but so far I'm still shooting DVCAM for those projects. For my personal documentary stuff, I just capture the entire tape, and with lots of interviews, that's probably what I'd do in any case.

Still, it would be nice to have a deck.

Bill Edmunds · September 13th, 2007, 06:12 PM

I am considering both the A1 and the Sony V1u. I don't quite understand what the difference between Canon's 24f and Sony's 24p are (or 30f and 30p). Is it also true that there is no hdv deck that will play back Canon's 24f? Does resolution suffer in 24f/30f versus 60i?

Chris Hurd · September 13th, 2007, 06:45 PM

Frequently asked... any consumer Canon HDV camcorder (HV10 or HV20) can be used as a deck to play back 24P or 30P video recorded in Frame mode. The Sony VTR's are incompatible with Frame mode.

Bill Edmunds · September 13th, 2007, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Frequently asked... any consumer Canon HDV camcorder (HV10 or HV20) can be used as a deck to play back 24P or 30P video recorded in Frame mode. The Sony VTR's are incompatible with Frame mode.

In "true" progressive cameras, 30p boasts a slightly higher resolution than 60i. Does Canon's 30f do the same?

Taylor Rudd · September 13th, 2007, 08:54 PM

I believe the 24F and 30F modes slightly decrease resolution (I've heard around 10-15%, but I'm not positive).

Chris Hurd · September 13th, 2007, 09:19 PM

It's a slight loss in vertical res, and a complete non-issue for XH A1 shooters.

Bill Edmunds · September 13th, 2007, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

It's a slight loss in vertical res, and a complete non-issue for XH A1 shooters.

Why is it a non-issue?

Pete Bauer · September 14th, 2007, 12:16 AM

Because it is one of the best 24p/25p/30p pictures in its price range. On a static rez chart (one of many ways to measure a camera's capabilities), Frame mode is sharp; 60i is slightly sharper. Anyone not happy with the capabilities of an XH camera just needs to go out and spend a whole lot more money on something else.

Both the deck issue and slight differences in rez between 60i and Frame Mode have been discussed to death throughout the XL H1 and XH forums. Please review those many, many threads. Then, if there are any new facts to add to those existing discussions, please do.

Jack Walker · September 14th, 2007, 01:36 AM

I will suggest that the slight difference in static resolution and "sharpness" are not issues in frame/progressive mode. Part of the look of the progressive video is the smoothness and it is normal to turn detail way down and get rid of ultra-contrast to make the video look good. This negates any imagined deficit of decreased resolution.

In interlaced mode, where the ultra-crisp and sharp picture is part of the look sometimes, I suppose the more resolution the better. But I've seen a lot of video that would benefit from less "hyper-active" sharpness.

Bill Pryor · September 14th, 2007, 10:00 AM

The resolution of Canon's 24f mode looks as good as any of the other 1/3" chip cameras--it's just that its interlace mode resolution is better. In that famous Texas shootout test, the Canon seemed to have the highest resolution, as I recall. You can afford to lose a little and not notice it. The loss is due to the way they achieve 24p from interlaced chips. I shoot most everything at 24fps with my XH A1, and it looks better than what I shot with a $30,000 DSR500 package (and it pains me to say that, but it does, in HDV anyway; I haven't shot SD for a comparison).

Bill Edmunds · September 27th, 2007, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

The Sony VTR's are incompatible with Frame mode.

Are they compatible with interlaced video from the Canon (1080i)?

Bill Pryor · September 27th, 2007, 03:27 PM

Yes, you can play 60i HDV or SD tapes from the Canon on the Sony decks, and you also can play Standard Definition at 24p on Sony decks, just not HDV at 24p.

Alex Lucas · September 27th, 2007, 04:11 PM

I always thought that the output of my 24f A1 was just a different form of HDV 60i put into a different readable format, so the basic question is this...

The Sony decks can't play out 30f or 24f properly in HDV mode? Is that what your experience has taught you on this one?

Once again, I thought that 24f and 30f on Canon HDV was just a different form of 60i and it could play out, in essence, because it's all 60i.

Please a little clarification in this thread, so we can all know exactly if Sony decks are completely out of the picture for playback and capture to editors.

September 13th, 2007, 06:12 PM	#94
Bill Edmunds Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Conway, NH Posts: 574	24f: no compatible deck? I am considering both the A1 and the Sony V1u. I don't quite understand what the difference between Canon's 24f and Sony's 24p are (or 30f and 30p). Is it also true that there is no hdv deck that will play back Canon's 24f? Does resolution suffer in 24f/30f versus 60i?

September 13th, 2007, 06:45 PM	#95
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Frequently asked... any consumer Canon HDV camcorder (HV10 or HV20) can be used as a deck to play back 24P or 30P video recorded in Frame mode. The Sony VTR's are incompatible with Frame mode. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 13th, 2007, 09:19 PM	#98
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	It's a slight loss in vertical res, and a complete non-issue for XH A1 shooters. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 14th, 2007, 12:16 AM	#100
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Because it is one of the best 24p/25p/30p pictures in its price range. On a static rez chart (one of many ways to measure a camera's capabilities), Frame mode is sharp; 60i is slightly sharper. Anyone not happy with the capabilities of an XH camera just needs to go out and spend a whole lot more money on something else. Both the deck issue and slight differences in rez between 60i and Frame Mode have been discussed to death throughout the XL H1 and XH forums. Please review those many, many threads. Then, if there are any new facts to add to those existing discussions, please do. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

September 27th, 2007, 04:11 PM	#105
Alex Lucas Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 50	Bill, I'm a little confused. I always thought that the output of my 24f A1 was just a different form of HDV 60i put into a different readable format, so the basic question is this... The Sony decks can't play out 30f or 24f properly in HDV mode? Is that what your experience has taught you on this one? Once again, I thought that 24f and 30f on Canon HDV was just a different form of 60i and it could play out, in essence, because it's all 60i. Please a little clarification in this thread, so we can all know exactly if Sony decks are completely out of the picture for playback and capture to editors.

August 15th, 2007, 04:34 PM	#92
Bill Busby Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 959	The only issue I have with the HV10 as a deck is it's slow transport response, but that's expected since it wasn't designed to be a deck in the 1st place. Bill

August 15th, 2007, 04:59 PM	#93
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Yeah, that's my major complaint about not having a deck--slow and cumbersome. However, I've sort of changed my workflow to compensate for that. Instead of logging and capturing specific shots, I just grab the whole tape, and FCP divides it into its separate clips, and I label them after capture. This would be impractical on shows where there are many takes of specific scenes and I only want to load the good ones, but so far I'm still shooting DVCAM for those projects. For my personal documentary stuff, I just capture the entire tape, and with lots of interviews, that's probably what I'd do in any case. Still, it would be nice to have a deck.

September 13th, 2007, 08:54 PM	#97
Taylor Rudd New Boot Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Waco, Texas Posts: 6	I believe the 24F and 30F modes slightly decrease resolution (I've heard around 10-15%, but I'm not positive).

September 14th, 2007, 01:36 AM	#101
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	I will suggest that the slight difference in static resolution and "sharpness" are not issues in frame/progressive mode. Part of the look of the progressive video is the smoothness and it is normal to turn detail way down and get rid of ultra-contrast to make the video look good. This negates any imagined deficit of decreased resolution. In interlaced mode, where the ultra-crisp and sharp picture is part of the look sometimes, I suppose the more resolution the better. But I've seen a lot of video that would benefit from less "hyper-active" sharpness.

September 14th, 2007, 10:00 AM	#102
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	The resolution of Canon's 24f mode looks as good as any of the other 1/3" chip cameras--it's just that its interlace mode resolution is better. In that famous Texas shootout test, the Canon seemed to have the highest resolution, as I recall. You can afford to lose a little and not notice it. The loss is due to the way they achieve 24p from interlaced chips. I shoot most everything at 24fps with my XH A1, and it looks better than what I shot with a $30,000 DSR500 package (and it pains me to say that, but it does, in HDV anyway; I haven't shot SD for a comparison).

September 27th, 2007, 03:27 PM	#104
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Yes, you can play 60i HDV or SD tapes from the Canon on the Sony decks, and you also can play Standard Definition at 24p on Sony decks, just not HDV at 24p.