What is this problem?

Eric Weiss · October 24th, 2007, 04:47 PM

Panasonic makes some nice ones.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...elevision.html

"Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam
There is 0% chance your 42" Plasma is 1920X1080, no such thing."

I hope Jeff doesn't gamble.

Steve Wolla · October 24th, 2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juni Zhao

Yes you are absolutely right Eric, I concluded that SD (A1 as well as Z1) is pretty crappy too. Most of the times I can bring the footage back to my digital studio to do editing, but some other times clients just want the tape with SD footage right on the spot, in this case I have to shoot SD. Although I never got any complaints, I just feel unhappy with the artifacts rendered by A1 SD......

The A1 in SD mode takes simply beautiful pictures....better than any SD cam I have yet used.

Your plasma if a new "1080P" model, would have 1920 X 1080. If it's a couple years old, it'll be 1078 X 768 or similar.That still produces a stunning image.

Petri Kaipiainen · October 24th, 2007, 11:46 PM

The only way you can judge SD quality is to look at it with a SD monitor. XH-A1 SD looks just about perfect on a pro SD monitor and normal SD CRT TV set. It it looks bad on HD LSD screen there is something happening with the upscaling, interlacing, cables etc. which has nothing to do with the camera itself.

Stefan Scherperel · October 25th, 2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wolla

The A1 in SD mode takes simply beautiful pictures....better than any SD cam I have yet used.

Your plasma if a new "1080P" model, would have 1920 X 1080. If it's a couple years old, it'll be 1078 X 768 or similar.That still produces a stunning image.

While I don't want to dispute what is a beatiful SD image, I too will say that my experience shooting SD 16:9 on the Canon A1 is also awful. The same type of jagged lines occured and pretty much ruined the footage. My way of getting by this, just shoot in HD and downconvert from my NLE. Honestly the footage looks like it was shot from a completly different camera (with the NLE downconvert looking so much better).
If you want to chalk it up to user error, so be it, but I havn't found a magic button on the camera to give SD footage a clean look. . . only jagged lines everywhere.

Juni Zhao · October 25th, 2007, 10:12 AM

Ok Stefan, at least I know other fellows have the same jagged line problem with A1 (possibly most other HDV cameras) SD 16:9, I am not alone now.

I found downconverting with the camera is quite decent, and time saving....

Juni Zhao · October 25th, 2007, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petri Kaipiainen

The only way you can judge SD quality is to look at it with a SD monitor. XH-A1 SD looks just about perfect on a pro SD monitor and normal SD CRT TV set. It it looks bad on HD LSD screen there is something happening with the upscaling, interlacing, cables etc. which has nothing to do with the camera itself.

Please take a look at this picture: http://channeldv.com/public/original.bmp
This was taken from my NLE system, and nothing to do with monitor, you can see the jagged wires all over.

And this camera angle is done with a Sony Z1U, pretty much the same problem.
http://channeldv.com/public/original_z1u2.bmp

Mikko Lopponen · October 25th, 2007, 12:11 PM

The image looks deinterlaced. Check your editing settings.

Jeff Kellam · October 25th, 2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Weiss

Panasonic makes some nice ones.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...elevision.html

"Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam
There is 0% chance your 42" Plasma is 1920X1080, no such thing."

I hope Jeff doesn't gamble.

Richard & Eric:

I guess I am about 4 or 5 months behind the times. That is the only one I have ever seen. Since someone now makes that panel, I guess several mfgs will start putting out 1920X1080s in 42" plasma.

I still say there is 0% chance the OPs is 1920X1080.

Petri Kaipiainen · October 25th, 2007, 11:23 PM

When I say the only way to judge the image is a proper SD monitor, I mean it. Feed the SD signal straight from camera to regular SD CRT TV or a pro monitor. XH-A1 is a video camera meant to shoot interlaced television video. If the signal is fed to ANYTHING else (NLE, computer display, large panel LCD TV etc) it is not standard display anymore and conversion, non-standard settings like deinterlacing, wrong field order, upscaling etc can wreck havoc of the picture. And that is not the CAMERA'S fault!!!!

Bottom line: If the SD looks bad, there is something wrong with the display chain.

Steve Wolla · October 26th, 2007, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan Scherperel

While I don't want to dispute what is a beatiful SD image, I too will say that my experience shooting SD 16:9 on the Canon A1 is also awful. The same type of jagged lines occured and pretty much ruined the footage. My way of getting by this, just shoot in HD and downconvert from my NLE. Honestly the footage looks like it was shot from a completly different camera (with the NLE downconvert looking so much better).
If you want to chalk it up to user error, so be it, but I havn't found a magic button on the camera to give SD footage a clean look. . . only jagged lines everywhere.

That shouldn't be.....the cam is certainly capable, in my experience anyways, of delivering excellent SD footage, without any sort of jagged lines. My point was, that owners of the A1 should not settle for such SD performance issues because it is not, in my experience, normal or characteristic of the cam.

I use my cam for my business, and shoot mostly SD, and if my cam did that, well....I would consider getting Canon involved and have them look at the cam. Don't acceot this as normal behavior of the cam--it isn't.

Eric Weiss · October 26th, 2007, 02:07 PM

It’s not my worth my time or investment to shoot SD on a native HDV cam. Factor in the archive potential, superior quality, and broader spectrum of uses – the fact that people are actually shooting content in SD with the A1 is beyond me.

SD broadcast is all I do. There is nothing wrong in my display chain or my capabilities. There is nothing wrong with my camera- except by design. I preformed extensive tests in every mode before deciding to use the A1 professionally. Since then, I’ve spent hundreds of hours behind it and can confidently say that its SD options are unacceptable.

Depending on what you are shooting, you can achieve clean images much of the time in SD- but not all of the time. Shooting HDV is what it was designed for and it has proven itself 100% of the time. Doing anything less is compromising your content and simply not worth it… especially when down converting is just as easy.

For those who have not experienced these issues- you are either not shooting enough, not even using 60i, or throwing so many contraptions on the end of it, you have no idea what the cameras native footage even looks like anyway. For some of you… all of the above.

This issue isn’t exclusive to the A1 either. As Alan Roberts, BBC Research states:

“I know of no HD cameras (even up to the broadcast models) that work properly as an SD camera. The reason is that, when used with HD lenses, they produce HF resolution, even in SD mode. This high-frequency content should be suppressed in the down-conversion process, but isn't, except in a very few top-end cameras. The h-f stuff gets handled wrongly in the cheap down-converters in the cameras, resulting in spatial aliasing that worries video compressors quite a lot and gives the pictures a worrying "busy" quality on edges. The cheaper the camera, the worse the effect (and I have plenty of lab-test evidence for saying this).”

For his research on the XHG1 and A1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp...Canon-XHG1.pdf

Page 16 section 3.2.2

Stefan Scherperel · October 27th, 2007, 02:15 AM

I'm going to go with Eric on this one. The Canon A1 is an HD camera. Much of the content I deliver is in SD resolution, however I have found there too be too much to lose to shoot in SD with a native HD camera. The purpose of my post wasn't so much to point out the SD problem with the A1 (I personally could care less if the A1 shot pixel vision resolution in SD) I bought an HD camera to shoot HD. So, to the OP, here is my suggestion, since everyone seems to have mixed opinions of SD, just save yourself the headache, shoot HD, donwconvert in camera or in post and live with the much better results you end up with shooting HD on a native HD camera.

Steve Jakubowski · December 15th, 2007, 01:55 AM

Um, this is just me thinking but here goes. The wires, as displayed in the last image posted are two cables twisted around one another and therefore do actually appear "jagged" even live with the naked eye. If you notice all other linear features in the last grab posted are nice and crisp. In my humble opinion you just picked the wrong feature to use as the topic in this post. The initial image you posted had issues all over it.

October 27th, 2007, 02:15 AM	#42
Stefan Scherperel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 209	I'm going to go with Eric on this one. The Canon A1 is an HD camera. Much of the content I deliver is in SD resolution, however I have found there too be too much to lose to shoot in SD with a native HD camera. The purpose of my post wasn't so much to point out the SD problem with the A1 (I personally could care less if the A1 shot pixel vision resolution in SD) I bought an HD camera to shoot HD. So, to the OP, here is my suggestion, since everyone seems to have mixed opinions of SD, just save yourself the headache, shoot HD, donwconvert in camera or in post and live with the much better results you end up with shooting HD on a native HD camera. __________________ Stefan Scherperel SSE Productions http://www.stefweb.net

December 15th, 2007, 01:55 AM	#43
Steve Jakubowski New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 16	Jagged Wires Um, this is just me thinking but here goes. The wires, as displayed in the last image posted are two cables twisted around one another and therefore do actually appear "jagged" even live with the naked eye. If you notice all other linear features in the last grab posted are nice and crisp. In my humble opinion you just picked the wrong feature to use as the topic in this post. The initial image you posted had issues all over it.

October 24th, 2007, 04:47 PM	#31
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	Panasonic makes some nice ones. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...elevision.html "Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam There is 0% chance your 42" Plasma is 1920X1080, no such thing." I hope Jeff doesn't gamble.

October 24th, 2007, 11:46 PM	#33
Petri Kaipiainen Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Espoo Finland Posts: 380	The only way you can judge SD quality is to look at it with a SD monitor. XH-A1 SD looks just about perfect on a pro SD monitor and normal SD CRT TV set. It it looks bad on HD LSD screen there is something happening with the upscaling, interlacing, cables etc. which has nothing to do with the camera itself.

October 25th, 2007, 10:12 AM	#35
Juni Zhao Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Andover, Ma Posts: 102	Ok Stefan, at least I know other fellows have the same jagged line problem with A1 (possibly most other HDV cameras) SD 16:9, I am not alone now. I found downconverting with the camera is quite decent, and time saving....

October 25th, 2007, 12:11 PM	#37
Mikko Lopponen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 393	The image looks deinterlaced. Check your editing settings.

October 25th, 2007, 11:23 PM	#39
Petri Kaipiainen Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Espoo Finland Posts: 380	When I say the only way to judge the image is a proper SD monitor, I mean it. Feed the SD signal straight from camera to regular SD CRT TV or a pro monitor. XH-A1 is a video camera meant to shoot interlaced television video. If the signal is fed to ANYTHING else (NLE, computer display, large panel LCD TV etc) it is not standard display anymore and conversion, non-standard settings like deinterlacing, wrong field order, upscaling etc can wreck havoc of the picture. And that is not the CAMERA'S fault!!!! Bottom line: If the SD looks bad, there is something wrong with the display chain.

October 26th, 2007, 02:07 PM	#41
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	It’s not my worth my time or investment to shoot SD on a native HDV cam. Factor in the archive potential, superior quality, and broader spectrum of uses – the fact that people are actually shooting content in SD with the A1 is beyond me. SD broadcast is all I do. There is nothing wrong in my display chain or my capabilities. There is nothing wrong with my camera- except by design. I preformed extensive tests in every mode before deciding to use the A1 professionally. Since then, I’ve spent hundreds of hours behind it and can confidently say that its SD options are unacceptable. Depending on what you are shooting, you can achieve clean images much of the time in SD- but not all of the time. Shooting HDV is what it was designed for and it has proven itself 100% of the time. Doing anything less is compromising your content and simply not worth it… especially when down converting is just as easy. For those who have not experienced these issues- you are either not shooting enough, not even using 60i, or throwing so many contraptions on the end of it, you have no idea what the cameras native footage even looks like anyway. For some of you… all of the above. This issue isn’t exclusive to the A1 either. As Alan Roberts, BBC Research states: “I know of no HD cameras (even up to the broadcast models) that work properly as an SD camera. The reason is that, when used with HD lenses, they produce HF resolution, even in SD mode. This high-frequency content should be suppressed in the down-conversion process, but isn't, except in a very few top-end cameras. The h-f stuff gets handled wrongly in the cheap down-converters in the cameras, resulting in spatial aliasing that worries video compressors quite a lot and gives the pictures a worrying "busy" quality on edges. The cheaper the camera, the worse the effect (and I have plenty of lab-test evidence for saying this).” For his research on the XHG1 and A1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp...Canon-XHG1.pdf Page 16 section 3.2.2