4:2:2 color sampling in A1 and G1? at DVinfo.net

Jose Milan · October 2nd, 2007, 07:52 AM

Quick question.

Do both cameras sample color in 4:2:2 or just the G1 with the special HD-SDI/SD-SDI Out, Genlock, Time Code connector?

Thanks.

Steven Dempsey · October 2nd, 2007, 07:58 AM

The latter:

The G1 has a variety of broadcast studio connections for timecode and genlock, as well as an uncompressed HD-SDI output (4:2:2 output directly from the camera only; tape recordings still meet the 4:2:0 HDV standards).

Jose Milan · October 2nd, 2007, 08:09 AM

Hello Steven,

1. So the only one to be able to output to 4:2:2 is the G1 and not the A1?

2. And only if you use the HD-SDI/SD-SDI Out, Genlock, Time Code connector you get 4:2:2, right?

3. So using tape you loose the 4:2:2 output?

The thing is I usully record straight to hard disk connecting the camera to a pc or using FOCUS hard drive and I was wondering if I could get 4:2:2 this way with the fire-wire connector...I guess this is not possible?

Thanks.

Jose Milan · October 2nd, 2007, 08:11 AM

Hello again, sorry for the mistakes, english is not my mother language, here we go again with updates:

Hello Steven,

1. So the only one to be able to output to 4:2:2 is the G1 and not the A1?

2. And only if you use the HD-SDI/SD-SDI Out, Genlock, Time Code connector you get 4:2:2, right?

3. So using tape you loose the 4:2:2 output?

The thing is I usually record straight to hard disk connecting the camera to a pc or using FOCUS hard drive and I was wondering if I could get 4:2:2 this way USING THE A1 with the fire-wire connector...I guess this is not possible?

Thanks.

Dee Joslin · October 2nd, 2007, 08:15 AM

You can capture analog rgb 4:2:2 out of the A1 with a kona or some other capture card.

Firewire is HDV output.

Thomas Smet · October 2nd, 2007, 08:24 AM

Any form of output such as SDI, component or HDMI will be 4:2:2 but only during live shooting. The signal goes right from the camera head and through the outputs as 4:2:2. Once the signal goes through the tape or out the firewire port live it is encoded as mpeg2 with 4:2:0 color. Thats the way it is on any and every HDV or AVCHD camera.

Keep in mind however that The Canon A1 and G1 use a great form of encoding for progressive video. The 4:2:0 in true progressive encoding is very easy to work with and is very high quality even for keying. If you plan on keying interlaced video then interlaced 4:2:0 isn't all that bad either once it is displayed as interlaced again.

Jose Milan · October 2nd, 2007, 08:26 AM

Hello Dee,

So to get 4:2:2 I have to get the anolog way?. Can you give me a link to those cards, (I guess I can google kona and that would do it).

"Firewire is HDV output"...I guess you mean firewire is High Definition Video, but I don't understand what you want to explain, I can't get the 4:2:2 sampling out of the digital connector, that is just using the firewire??

Thanks

Jose Milan · October 2nd, 2007, 09:15 AM

Hello Thomas,

You clarify things a lot. So to get 4:2:2 out of the A1 is using an analog card (such as the one Dee was talking about), do I loose anything using such a card, regarding the workflow or data space as opposed of the ease of using firewire.

About the keying. Yes. I was looking for 4:2:2 since I already have a Xl1S and keying is kind of tedious and we are looking in making the step forward using HD, the pitty is that we already have a lot of investments in the Xl1s, such extra 3 lenses; MA200 and many more and found out the lenses wont work with the new XL H1!!! All that money lost.

So in between choosing to expend +7000€ for the XL H1 and start all over again we want to opt for lower price camera like the A1, right now expending 5000€+ in the G1 is too much too.

Now many doubts come in staying in Canon or changing to the much aclaim Sony (V1E), since there's no way to use the lenses in newer cameras. But which brand to choose now?

But I want to make sure I can get 4:2:2 out of the A1, but seems the only way is to buy an analog card, right?

Many thanks

Ken Wozniak · October 2nd, 2007, 10:32 AM

Jose,

If you're looking to record in 4:2:2 without being wired, the Canon HDV cameras will not do it. You'll need to go with at least a Panasonic HVX200 and record DVCPRO50 or DVCPRO HD to P2 cards.

Peter Jefferson · October 2nd, 2007, 06:55 PM

Another option is to downconvert your HDV to SD using an intermediate 422 codec, whereby 420 HDV will in turn convert to 422 SD (if going SD delivery).

October 2nd, 2007, 07:52 AM	#1
Jose Milan Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Spain Posts: 185	4:2:2 color sampling in A1 and G1? Quick question. Do both cameras sample color in 4:2:2 or just the G1 with the special HD-SDI/SD-SDI Out, Genlock, Time Code connector? Thanks.

October 2nd, 2007, 07:58 AM	#2
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	The latter: The G1 has a variety of broadcast studio connections for timecode and genlock, as well as an uncompressed HD-SDI output (4:2:2 output directly from the camera only; tape recordings still meet the 4:2:0 HDV standards). __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

October 2nd, 2007, 08:15 AM	#5
Dee Joslin Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Scranton, PA. Posts: 91	You can capture analog rgb 4:2:2 out of the A1 with a kona or some other capture card. Firewire is HDV output. __________________ "There are 10 types of people in the world: Those that understand binary, and those that don't!"

October 2nd, 2007, 10:32 AM	#9
Ken Wozniak Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: South Bend, IN Posts: 179	Jose, If you're looking to record in 4:2:2 without being wired, the Canon HDV cameras will not do it. You'll need to go with at least a Panasonic HVX200 and record DVCPRO50 or DVCPRO HD to P2 cards. __________________ Woz

October 2nd, 2007, 08:09 AM	#3
Jose Milan Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Spain Posts: 185	Hello Steven, 1. So the only one to be able to output to 4:2:2 is the G1 and not the A1? 2. And only if you use the HD-SDI/SD-SDI Out, Genlock, Time Code connector you get 4:2:2, right? 3. So using tape you loose the 4:2:2 output? The thing is I usully record straight to hard disk connecting the camera to a pc or using FOCUS hard drive and I was wondering if I could get 4:2:2 this way with the fire-wire connector...I guess this is not possible? Thanks.

October 2nd, 2007, 08:11 AM	#4
Jose Milan Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Spain Posts: 185	Hello again, sorry for the mistakes, english is not my mother language, here we go again with updates: Hello Steven, 1. So the only one to be able to output to 4:2:2 is the G1 and not the A1? 2. And only if you use the HD-SDI/SD-SDI Out, Genlock, Time Code connector you get 4:2:2, right? 3. So using tape you loose the 4:2:2 output? The thing is I usually record straight to hard disk connecting the camera to a pc or using FOCUS hard drive and I was wondering if I could get 4:2:2 this way USING THE A1 with the fire-wire connector...I guess this is not possible? Thanks.

October 2nd, 2007, 08:24 AM	#6
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Any form of output such as SDI, component or HDMI will be 4:2:2 but only during live shooting. The signal goes right from the camera head and through the outputs as 4:2:2. Once the signal goes through the tape or out the firewire port live it is encoded as mpeg2 with 4:2:0 color. Thats the way it is on any and every HDV or AVCHD camera. Keep in mind however that The Canon A1 and G1 use a great form of encoding for progressive video. The 4:2:0 in true progressive encoding is very easy to work with and is very high quality even for keying. If you plan on keying interlaced video then interlaced 4:2:0 isn't all that bad either once it is displayed as interlaced again.

October 2nd, 2007, 08:26 AM	#7
Jose Milan Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Spain Posts: 185	Hello Dee, So to get 4:2:2 I have to get the anolog way?. Can you give me a link to those cards, (I guess I can google kona and that would do it). "Firewire is HDV output"...I guess you mean firewire is High Definition Video, but I don't understand what you want to explain, I can't get the 4:2:2 sampling out of the digital connector, that is just using the firewire?? Thanks

October 2nd, 2007, 09:15 AM	#8
Jose Milan Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Spain Posts: 185	Hello Thomas, You clarify things a lot. So to get 4:2:2 out of the A1 is using an analog card (such as the one Dee was talking about), do I loose anything using such a card, regarding the workflow or data space as opposed of the ease of using firewire. About the keying. Yes. I was looking for 4:2:2 since I already have a Xl1S and keying is kind of tedious and we are looking in making the step forward using HD, the pitty is that we already have a lot of investments in the Xl1s, such extra 3 lenses; MA200 and many more and found out the lenses wont work with the new XL H1!!! All that money lost. So in between choosing to expend +7000€ for the XL H1 and start all over again we want to opt for lower price camera like the A1, right now expending 5000€+ in the G1 is too much too. Now many doubts come in staying in Canon or changing to the much aclaim Sony (V1E), since there's no way to use the lenses in newer cameras. But which brand to choose now? But I want to make sure I can get 4:2:2 out of the A1, but seems the only way is to buy an analog card, right? Many thanks

October 2nd, 2007, 06:55 PM	#10
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	Another option is to downconvert your HDV to SD using an intermediate 422 codec, whereby 420 HDV will in turn convert to 422 SD (if going SD delivery).