A1 at the miniature horse show at DVinfo.net

Trish Kerr · September 1st, 2007, 11:07 AM

I have a quick question on settings

I am going up to a film a friend at a horse show tomorrow - I want to shoot in 24p but I was wondering if 60i is the more appropriate.

If I can get away with 24p I'd rather do it but wanted to know if it would get me into too much trouble with the faster scenes - this is assuming there are some with mini horses - i have no idea what is actually involved

probably something like a 'best in show'

any thoughts would be great

trish

Chris Hurd · September 1st, 2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trish Kerr

24p... if it would get me into too much trouble with the faster scenes

Exactly the reason why you really should consider 30p instead.

Horses are my second life, never known minis to move out all that quickly, but in my firm opinion you'll be much better off with 30p rather than 24p. Of course the best thing to do is shoot a little test for yourself and compare all three frame rates -- the one which appeals to you most is the "right one" for you.

Eric Weiss · September 1st, 2007, 11:32 AM

Hi Trish,

You'll be fine with 24, but it just depends what you want the look to be.
With the A1 at 60i, the project will look like the "broadcast" of it.
At 24 it will look more stylish. Those little guys aren't very fast either.

I'd go with 24f - 1/48 on a tripod. It will give you some real field practice and if there is any strobing, your friend won't notice. Keep the pans as slow as possible and shoot wide. When you do your close ups, find a focal length where they are close but you can still track them with a moderate pan. Try to stay above 5 seconds to complete a 180 degree pan.

I just shot Americas Cup boat racing at 24 and it's very smooth.

Bill Pryor · September 1st, 2007, 12:55 PM

I haven't shot horses since my 16mm days, but I always shot at 24 fps then. Ii've shot a kid riding around and around on an oval track on a bicycle, and there was no funky motion artifacts.

Jack Walker · September 1st, 2007, 01:10 PM

Another consideration might be the final product. If it is standard definition DVD then 30F would be an excellent choice.

Mats Frendahl · September 1st, 2007, 03:32 PM

Just curious, does the NTSC A1 have 60i, 30F and 24F - i.e. 3 speeds?
(The PAL A1 has only 50i and 25F.)

Jack Walker · September 1st, 2007, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats Frendahl

Just curious, does the NTSC A1 have 60i, 30F and 24F - i.e. 3 speeds?
(The PAL A1 has only 50i and 25F.)

Yes.

I believe the reason that the PAL version does not have 24F is that the normal translation from 24 and 25 progressive is to speed up or slow down 4%.

As noted many places elsewhere, either version of the camera can be upgraded by Canon to include all options, but this upgrade is about $750 in the U.S., with similar pricing in PAL land.

Trish Kerr · September 1st, 2007, 09:45 PM

thanks everyone, for all the help.

Sounds like 24 or 30 would work.

Does it actually look better if you film in 30p (over 24p) and then deliver to a standard DVD?

I was naively assuming you went 24p regardless as movies are shot 24 and eventually deliver to dvd anyway. (though I realize the frame rate converts to 29.97 in the translation)

trish

Eric Weiss · September 1st, 2007, 10:02 PM

i haven't tried 30f on the A1. I never cared for it on the XL1, but that's just me. Even though I don't really find the 24 mode to resemble "film" at all..I still like the way it looks.

If your delivery will be on SD DVD, I would shoot it in 24f and import it as SD with an HV20. The HV20 does the conversion process extremely well.

Jack Walker · September 2nd, 2007, 01:53 AM

If you go to NTSC DVD, both 24p and 30p will work fine.

With 30p you get each frame doubled. With some form of pulldown will be used (2 frames, 3 frames, etc.). All movies you see on NTSC DVD are shown like this.

It seems that perhaps the most important thing to get it to look right is to use a shutter speed double the frame rate. So if you shoot 24f, 1/48 and 30f, 1/60.

(I don't know what effect in the progressive mode flourescent and other pulsating lights have. I know that a number of years ago a film I was working on had to reshoot an entire day's work because the flourescent lights caused flickering... probably because they used 1/48 shutter, but then a lot of the stuff was slow motion shot high speed so there may have been other issues, too.)

24p can be a good choice for anything on the web, as it's a good middle ground between 30 fps and 15fps... it's not as hard to stream as 30fps, but it's not kind of jerky like 15fps if you cut the 30 in half.

One final thought, if you haven't ever shot 24p (or 24f on the Canon), you may or may not be happy with the way it comes out. 30p (30f on the Canon) is kind of a safe choice that will give you the progressive feel but will handle the motion better than the 24p (both subject movement and camera movement) and won't have the issues so much that are associated with 24p.

In any case, the the XH-A1, no matter what mode you use, I think the video will come out fine.

September 1st, 2007, 11:07 AM	#1
Trish Kerr Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 294	A1 at the miniature horse show I have a quick question on settings I am going up to a film a friend at a horse show tomorrow - I want to shoot in 24p but I was wondering if 60i is the more appropriate. If I can get away with 24p I'd rather do it but wanted to know if it would get me into too much trouble with the faster scenes - this is assuming there are some with mini horses - i have no idea what is actually involved probably something like a 'best in show' any thoughts would be great trish

September 1st, 2007, 11:32 AM	#3
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	Hi Trish, You'll be fine with 24, but it just depends what you want the look to be. With the A1 at 60i, the project will look like the "broadcast" of it. At 24 it will look more stylish. Those little guys aren't very fast either. I'd go with 24f - 1/48 on a tripod. It will give you some real field practice and if there is any strobing, your friend won't notice. Keep the pans as slow as possible and shoot wide. When you do your close ups, find a focal length where they are close but you can still track them with a moderate pan. Try to stay above 5 seconds to complete a 180 degree pan. I just shot Americas Cup boat racing at 24 and it's very smooth.

September 1st, 2007, 12:55 PM	#4
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I haven't shot horses since my 16mm days, but I always shot at 24 fps then. Ii've shot a kid riding around and around on an oval track on a bicycle, and there was no funky motion artifacts.

September 1st, 2007, 01:10 PM	#5
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Another consideration might be the final product. If it is standard definition DVD then 30F would be an excellent choice.

September 1st, 2007, 03:32 PM	#6
Mats Frendahl Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 126	Just curious, does the NTSC A1 have 60i, 30F and 24F - i.e. 3 speeds? (The PAL A1 has only 50i and 25F.)

September 1st, 2007, 09:45 PM	#8
Trish Kerr Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 294	thanks everyone, for all the help. Sounds like 24 or 30 would work. Does it actually look better if you film in 30p (over 24p) and then deliver to a standard DVD? I was naively assuming you went 24p regardless as movies are shot 24 and eventually deliver to dvd anyway. (though I realize the frame rate converts to 29.97 in the translation) trish

September 1st, 2007, 10:02 PM	#9
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	i haven't tried 30f on the A1. I never cared for it on the XL1, but that's just me. Even though I don't really find the 24 mode to resemble "film" at all..I still like the way it looks. If your delivery will be on SD DVD, I would shoot it in 24f and import it as SD with an HV20. The HV20 does the conversion process extremely well.

September 2nd, 2007, 01:53 AM	#10
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	If you go to NTSC DVD, both 24p and 30p will work fine. With 30p you get each frame doubled. With some form of pulldown will be used (2 frames, 3 frames, etc.). All movies you see on NTSC DVD are shown like this. It seems that perhaps the most important thing to get it to look right is to use a shutter speed double the frame rate. So if you shoot 24f, 1/48 and 30f, 1/60. (I don't know what effect in the progressive mode flourescent and other pulsating lights have. I know that a number of years ago a film I was working on had to reshoot an entire day's work because the flourescent lights caused flickering... probably because they used 1/48 shutter, but then a lot of the stuff was slow motion shot high speed so there may have been other issues, too.) 24p can be a good choice for anything on the web, as it's a good middle ground between 30 fps and 15fps... it's not as hard to stream as 30fps, but it's not kind of jerky like 15fps if you cut the 30 in half. One final thought, if you haven't ever shot 24p (or 24f on the Canon), you may or may not be happy with the way it comes out. 30p (30f on the Canon) is kind of a safe choice that will give you the progressive feel but will handle the motion better than the 24p (both subject movement and camera movement) and won't have the issues so much that are associated with 24p. In any case, the the XH-A1, no matter what mode you use, I think the video will come out fine.