Ultmately dumb question: What is 24f for?

Denis Murphy · September 11th, 2007, 03:50 PM

Interesting thread.

Surprised no one's yet mentioned the effect of 3:2 pulldown (the method used to transfer 24fps films to 60i videotape in the SD world when "progressive" was not an option) on the viewing experience.

As a European, I found the peculiar motion signature introduced by this (entirely necessary) technique very noticeable, although not unpleasant. It's something that we in PAL land never see because, here, 24fps material is simply sped up to 25fps for transfer to video, as was alluded to above.

Does anyone deliberately shoot 24p and add pulldown to produce a 60i final product, in order to recreate this effect?

(I know people without progressive TVs have no choice in this matter and the DVD player adds the pulldown to 24p DVD material, but it's an interesting thought for those that DO have a choice.)

Raymond Toussaint · September 12th, 2007, 08:53 AM

PAL A1:

I see the default 1/25 as a problem, any time you swith the cam on you need to return it to 1/50 and if you forget to do so... It is an annoying extra step shooting in 25f. Sure if you WANT to use the 1/25 shutter (why not, in a static shot you gain more light) you always can switch to that setting , but for default 1/50 would be best.

If I have to much light, I use an extra ND setting or ND lens, you can however use a higher shutter setting. (I'm shooting 25f 1/50 everything) What do you do? Hw often do you switch to higher shutter? Folowing fast objects? More 'detail' in those objects, without the motion blur you always have with the 1/50?

Bill Pryor · September 12th, 2007, 09:01 AM

I'm in NTSCland and when I first switched to 24f mode, the shutter defaulted to 1/24. I moved it to 1/48 and it stays there unless I change it.
A video camera isn't like a still camera, and generally it's not a good idea to use the shutter to control exposure. You will always get some sort of effect if you use a shutter speed different from the norm. If you want the effect, then that's cool.

Raymond Toussaint · September 12th, 2007, 10:07 AM

Is it? Happy you. Only in standby it remains it's shutterspeed, or in card mode. After switching on/off it's gone and you are in 1/25 again (PAL).

Like TC is back to 00:00:00:00 if you switch the cam off. Even if you preset it with a number like tape 4 start with 04:00:00:00

Bill Pryor · September 12th, 2007, 11:43 AM

I wonder why the PAL version does that; I don't think it should.

Kyle Prohaska · September 12th, 2007, 12:21 PM

24p in itself isn't that film look that people look for...its only a part of it. Its the 1/48th shutter that gives the motion IN the image. 24fps is just a frame rate but it does add to the film like look. The 1/48th shutter + the 24 cadence = that look that people look for. Shooting 30fps means 1/60th shutter (not always but you get the idea) so 60i, 30p, etc. will always have that video look although 30p does get closer to that nice filmic movement. Film look is more than mere 24p though as other stated, every other aspect of filmmaking goes into that look, light, composition, blah blah blah.

Not sure if I just restated something everyone said but w/e...

- Kyle

Poppe Johansson · September 12th, 2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond Toussaint

Is it? Happy you. Only in standby it remains it's shutterspeed, or in card mode. After switching on/off it's gone and you are in 1/25 again (PAL).
Like TC is back to 00:00:00:00 if you switch the cam off. Even if you preset it with a number like tape 4 start with 04:00:00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

I wonder why the PAL version does that; I don't think it should.

Yes, it shouldn't do that. My PAL A1 does keep shutter and TC information, even when battery is removed.

Raymond Toussaint · September 12th, 2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppe Johansson

Yes, it shouldn't do that. My PAL A1 does keep shutter and TC information, even when battery is removed.

So you are happy too? Hmmm...., so its not a limitation on the PAL model but only on the one I use :>(

Some memory that can't hold its power, maybe the internal batterie? Mine does not hold that data, good to have this board Poppe and Bill!

Jim Bucciferro · September 12th, 2007, 01:54 PM

If I shoot 24F and edit it in a 24F timeline, once I convert it to interlaced DVD for TV isn't there a loss in quality?

Jim

Denis Murphy · September 13th, 2007, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppe Johansson

Yes, it shouldn't do that. My PAL A1 does keep shutter and TC information, even when battery is removed.

Mine too. No default to 1/25th here.

Denis Murphy · September 13th, 2007, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Bucciferro

If I shoot 24F and edit it in a 24F timeline, once I convert it to interlaced DVD for TV isn't there a loss in quality?

Jim

Why would you convert? DVD players can handle 24p. The DVD player will do the conversion to interlaced, you don't have to do this yourself.

Raymond Toussaint · September 13th, 2007, 08:34 AM

Nope...I did some experiments to re-find what is happening during the shoot.

Try this:
Set cam to TV mode
Shutter to 50
Push exp. Lock (so you lock the exposure)
Switch cam off

Switch cam on again
look at the shutter....
its 25 again!

And that is what is happening me during the shoot! BTW my cam holds it data in other circumstances. Like changing batterie. So no problem with it.

Poppe Johansson · September 13th, 2007, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond Toussaint

Try this: ....

True. This way it goes back to 25 also in my A1.

September 11th, 2007, 03:50 PM	#46
Denis Murphy Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 47	And then there was pulldown Interesting thread. Surprised no one's yet mentioned the effect of 3:2 pulldown (the method used to transfer 24fps films to 60i videotape in the SD world when "progressive" was not an option) on the viewing experience. As a European, I found the peculiar motion signature introduced by this (entirely necessary) technique very noticeable, although not unpleasant. It's something that we in PAL land never see because, here, 24fps material is simply sped up to 25fps for transfer to video, as was alluded to above. Does anyone deliberately shoot 24p and add pulldown to produce a 60i final product, in order to recreate this effect? (I know people without progressive TVs have no choice in this matter and the DVD player adds the pulldown to 24p DVD material, but it's an interesting thought for those that DO have a choice.)

September 12th, 2007, 12:21 PM	#51
Kyle Prohaska Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Ransomville NY Posts: 239	24p in itself isn't that film look that people look for...its only a part of it. Its the 1/48th shutter that gives the motion IN the image. 24fps is just a frame rate but it does add to the film like look. The 1/48th shutter + the 24 cadence = that look that people look for. Shooting 30fps means 1/60th shutter (not always but you get the idea) so 60i, 30p, etc. will always have that video look although 30p does get closer to that nice filmic movement. Film look is more than mere 24p though as other stated, every other aspect of filmmaking goes into that look, light, composition, blah blah blah. Not sure if I just restated something everyone said but w/e... - Kyle __________________ Online Portfolio \| Feature Film on XHA1

September 12th, 2007, 01:54 PM	#54
Jim Bucciferro Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Shelton, CT USA Posts: 125	Editing 24F for NTSC TV If I shoot 24F and edit it in a 24F timeline, once I convert it to interlaced DVD for TV isn't there a loss in quality? Jim

September 12th, 2007, 08:53 AM	#47
Raymond Toussaint Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 173	PAL A1: I see the default 1/25 as a problem, any time you swith the cam on you need to return it to 1/50 and if you forget to do so... It is an annoying extra step shooting in 25f. Sure if you WANT to use the 1/25 shutter (why not, in a static shot you gain more light) you always can switch to that setting , but for default 1/50 would be best. If I have to much light, I use an extra ND setting or ND lens, you can however use a higher shutter setting. (I'm shooting 25f 1/50 everything) What do you do? Hw often do you switch to higher shutter? Folowing fast objects? More 'detail' in those objects, without the motion blur you always have with the 1/50?

September 12th, 2007, 09:01 AM	#48
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I'm in NTSCland and when I first switched to 24f mode, the shutter defaulted to 1/24. I moved it to 1/48 and it stays there unless I change it. A video camera isn't like a still camera, and generally it's not a good idea to use the shutter to control exposure. You will always get some sort of effect if you use a shutter speed different from the norm. If you want the effect, then that's cool.

September 12th, 2007, 10:07 AM	#49
Raymond Toussaint Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 173	Is it? Happy you. Only in standby it remains it's shutterspeed, or in card mode. After switching on/off it's gone and you are in 1/25 again (PAL). Like TC is back to 00:00:00:00 if you switch the cam off. Even if you preset it with a number like tape 4 start with 04:00:00:00

September 12th, 2007, 11:43 AM	#50
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I wonder why the PAL version does that; I don't think it should.

September 13th, 2007, 08:34 AM	#57
Raymond Toussaint Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 173	Nope...I did some experiments to re-find what is happening during the shoot. Try this: Set cam to TV mode Shutter to 50 Push exp. Lock (so you lock the exposure) Switch cam off Switch cam on again look at the shutter.... its 25 again! And that is what is happening me during the shoot! BTW my cam holds it data in other circumstances. Like changing batterie. So no problem with it.