Ultmately dumb question: What is 24f for?

[Charles Papert]

While it is obviously possible to shoot with a 1/24 shutter, it will create a motion blur that has to be evaluated to decide whether it is a worthwhile tradeoff for the extra stop. I've done it myself and sometimes regretted it when I see the results. Certain scenes in "Apocalypto" were shot this way and a sharp eye can discern the difference. If one is truly hoping to emulate the film look, it's best to avoid as the resulting motion blur is a detriment.

[Chris Hurd]

Indeed, that is why the default 24p shutter speed on the Canon XH G1 and A1 is 1/48th.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Indeed, that is why the default 24p shutter speed on the Canon XH G1 and A1 is 1/48th.

Chris, it's 1/25th on my V1E, and - if I remember correcly - it also was 1/25th on the Canon I tested. This is basically like switching the shutter off (shutter=fps; just a single full exposition per frame), and we discussed it in the new EX camera forum.

So, I guess both Canon and Sony meant exactly what I have said.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Chris, it's 1/25th on my V1E, and - if I remember correcly - it also was 1/25th on the Canon I tested.

Sorry, but this is one difference between 24p and 25p on Canon camcorders. While it's true that the default 25p shutter speed is 1/25th, it is in fact a different story in 24p. For both the Canon XL and XH camcorders, the default 24p shutter speed is indeed 1/48th.

So, I guess both Canon and Sony meant exactly what I have said.

No, I guess they did not, at least as far as 24p is concerned. See the posts from Greg Boston and Charles Papert above. Hope this helps,

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Fair enough - I never had an opportunity to lay hands on an NTSC machine. From what you're saying, the EX will probably default to 1/48th with shutter off in the 1080/24p or 720/24p modes.

[Richard Hunter]

The 1/25s default on PAL cams has to be a mistake on Canon's part. Most footage with any significant motion shot at 1/25s has far too much motion blur. It should be a special effect setting, not the default (my opinion, of course).

Richard

[Chris Hurd]

Thankfully the default shutter speed is easily changeable; as far as Canon camcorders are concerned, it's an annoyance only in the XL series. In the EVF there's a small red warning LED that shines anytime the shutter speed is out of default, and there's no way to turn it off. It's just something you have to learn to ignore.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Richard Hunter

The 1/25s default on PAL cams has to be a mistake on Canon's part. Most footage with any significant motion shot at 1/25s has far too much motion blur. It should be a special effect setting, not the default (my opinion, of course).

Richard

Respectfully, let me disagree - while it's way too slow in 50i and causes "special effect" blur indeed, in 25p (provided the subject is reasonably stationary, or you only pan following your (focussed) main subject), it can give very nice picture with that a bit 'dreamy' feeling about it... As stated before, I only use it in dim surroundings and with not too much movement.

[Mats Frendahl]

Originally Posted by Mikko Lopponen

You serious? The difference is huge!

Can you post any clips showing the huge difference?

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Fair enough - I never had an opportunity to lay hands on an NTSC machine. From what you're saying, the EX will probably default to 1/48th with shutter off in the 1080/24p or 720/24p modes.

It may or may not. Canon chose to make the 1/48th a default because they knew that the users shooting in 24 wanted to achieve a film look with the correct motion blur.

However, if the EX provides a shutter on/off like the larger cameras, then simply turning on the switch might land you somewhere else (my F350 tends to remember your last shutter speed used). Anytime I use 23.98 on the F350, I have to manually check and adjust, if necessary to get 1/48th shutter when the switch is turned on.

I certainly can understand you wanting to use 1/25, or full frame shutter rate in low light. It's an aesthetic choice you make to avoid gain or having the iris wide open. But you have to know going in that motion blur is going to be a problem and movement within frame must be kept to a minimum. I just love the 64 frame accumulation on the F350... it turns night into day but there can be no movement. Works good for time lapses though.

-gb-

[Mats Frendahl]

Greg, slightly OT, but the 350 seems to be a wonderful unit. Perhaps we'll see all that in the 3-5k range in 5 years. I hope. The EX looks interesting. If Canon does not come up with something similar (and better) soon they might loose customers to Sony... if priced right and quality, naturally.

[Richard Hunter]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Respectfully, let me disagree - while it's way too slow in 50i and causes "special effect" blur indeed, in 25p (provided the subject is reasonably stationary, or you only pan following your (focussed) main subject), it can give very nice picture with that a bit 'dreamy' feeling about it... As stated before, I only use it in dim surroundings and with not too much movement.

Hi Piotr. OK, we can disagree, no problem. Of course you can use 1/25s in the circumstances you describe, I'm just very surprised anyone would want this as their default setting.

Richard

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Richard Hunter

Hi Piotr. OK, we can disagree, no problem. Of course you can use 1/25s in the circumstances you describe, I'm just very surprised anyone would want this as their default setting.

Richard

But again, suppose it has been Canon's mistake - but why did Sony do the same with the V1E? It also defaults to 1/25th with the PAL model; does it to 1/30th with NTSC? AND to 1/48th for 24p? (I'm asking, cause I can't check it on my own).

[Jeremy Naus]

quick question: am I correct in assuming that that 25f is better in low light than 50i?
I read here that someone used 24f for a wedding in a dark church since that gave better results than 30f or 60i?

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Naus

quick question: am I correct in assuming that that 25f is better in low light than 50i?
I read here that someone used 24f for a wedding in a dark church since that gave better results than 30f or 60i?

Yes, you are. The 1/25th shutter can be used with 25p with only some motion blur, while at 50i the slowest shutter (without introducing unnatural motion blur) is 1/50th, which translates to one full stop exposure difference.