Going SD

John Welsh · August 8th, 2007, 03:45 PM

I think i made a decision: I'll wait for the next canon cameras. Maybe there'll be something like H1, but not as expensive as it. (I read Steven sold his H1, maybe he is and you all are right that a1 is a wonder, I'll think again)
and anyways thank you all for replies

regards

Richard Hunter · August 8th, 2007, 05:18 PM

Hi John. I moved from XL2 to A1 last december, and I totally agree with you that the XL2 is better for SD. The pictures are somehow more solid with the XL2 and don't have that shifting/smearing of fine details that happens sometimes with the A1 when you move the camera.

But I would probably agree with your decision to wait for the next generation of cameras to come along, if you don't need it now. The market for SD must be winding down so buying an expensive SD camera doesn't look like a good idea. Or maybe you could pick up a cheap second-hand XL2?

Richard

Bill Busby · August 8th, 2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Welsh

It is not about SD or HD, i dont really give a damn what it is. I even think I prefer SD (just dont want to wait week until one scene is rendered in 3D max)

3DMax? Am I missing something? Since when did that become an edit app?

Bill

Vincent Oliver · August 9th, 2007, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Hunter

Hi John. I moved from XL2 to A1 last december, and I totally agree with you that the XL2 is better for SD. The pictures are somehow more solid with the XL2 and don't have that shifting/smearing of fine details that happens sometimes with the A1 when you move the camera.

Richard

Richard I have just posted a question relating to the smearing problem you mentioned, does this happen in HD too?

John Welsh · August 9th, 2007, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Busby

3DMax? Am I missing something? Since when did that become an edit app?

Bill

if you add some matrix bullet effects or explosions or i dunno what else, you have to render it into movie with MAX. A desktop pc needs days of time to render HD shots with reflection/refraction (like matrix bullet effects). With SD you need 1/4 of time you would need with HD to render the same scene.

You surely work more with premiere final cut and vegas, but Ive always used max for everything: from text on screen to color correction, motion blur, to special effects, just everything^^

OK, new Quad Cores from Intel do wonders, but I am not up to buy a new computer. (btw in December new Inter's 45nm CPU are coming)

regards

Bill Busby · August 9th, 2007, 04:42 AM

Ahh... ok sorry. You made no mention of any 3D compositing, so it read a bit funny to me.

Bill

Richard Hunter · August 9th, 2007, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Oliver

Richard I have just posted a question relating to the smearing problem you mentioned, does this happen in HD too?

Yes indeed, but there seems to be only a small number of users who report seeing this. I think it is most likely inherent to HDV encoding, but I would be willling (and happy) to find out it is something I am doing wrong while shooting.

Richard

Vincent Oliver · August 9th, 2007, 09:25 AM

Thanks Richard, my footage was actually shot in SD.

Here is the link to my original question

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...3&goto=newpost

Eric Weiss · August 9th, 2007, 09:27 AM

when something is broadcast or projected, there is typically anywhere from a 5% to a 20% crop from the source image.

if you’re going to shoot a "film-like" project, "dark corners" will be the least of your worries. You'll be cropping out boom mikes, crew, and lights... on a good day.

don't judge a camera based on how it performs with a third party adapter.

nobody in the A1 group is going to tell you to buy the XL2.

and for the record, the amount of pixels has quite a bit to do with image quality.

i just shot this clip below in grand cayman – HDV to SD, 24f, Canon WA. i've included
a wide range of shots to show color, dof, skin tones, bright and low light, and range.

The XL1 or 2 does not come close to the image quality of the A1. Any grain present is due to the stream. The source is crystal clear.

http://uncutvideo.aol.com/videos/312...898245?index=0

Rob Katz · August 10th, 2007, 02:54 PM

eric-

those were lovely images. thank u for sharing your efforts.

as someone who has not had a single client ask for hd, i'm still working in the world of sd. my work is usually screened at presentations or has been used for ntsc sd broadcast. that said, i'm still looking at the a1 but mostly for sd acquisition (and for any hd that rolls my way)

based on your obvious ability to extract lovely images from the a1, would you please explain some of your workflow, specifically the presets used on the interior and exterior shots AND most importantly, the propose of down-converting the hdv into sd.

sorry if i've asked a newbie-ish question. i'm still doing my homework.

thanks in advance

be well

rob katz
harvest films

Eric Weiss · August 10th, 2007, 04:20 PM

Rob,

I was actually in the same situation when I picked up the A1. The cam performs best in HDV. The SD options are pretty much useless if you’re coming from another Canon prosumer model. I’d advise against shooting anything in SD with it, but HDV and the HDV to SD is outstanding.

My workflow is to record in HDV- either 60i or 24f depending on the subject. I don’t really use presets. I’ve created my own on the fly, mostly just adding some saturation.
The color temp controls are usually enough in most cases.. and to be on the safe side I try to shoot as flat as possible. I use Vegas 4 and 7 and add any color correction in post. Everything on my sample is right from the cam. I just shot it and it’s still on my timeline.

For SD down, I import with an HV20 and set it for DV OUT. It down converts the 24f material nicely and I can also monitor the HDV version via the HDMI. Once in Vegas, it’s just like editing SD/.avi, but with more options. With the pixel ratio you can do 16x9, 4x3, or 4x3 with a 16x9 mask and implement some track motion.

I will also go back and selectively cap some HDV footage for HD B-Roll.

For the spa interiors, I was at 1/48 shutter and even down to 1/24 at times with db from 0 to +3. I used mostly natural lighting to preserve the ambience of the spa. In the darker areas I used a single 200w lamp bounced off the ceiling and set the color temp a bit warmer in-camera. The cam is quite clean in low light, though I wouldn’t push it past +6.

Exterior was shot at 1/48 with the in-camera ND to 1/32 at 0db. F-Stop was probably 2-5.
Some of those shots may have been in 60i too with typical settings.

I’m also overexposing my shots by a notch or two. I find I get cleaner results.

If you are on the fence about the A1, don’t be. It’s an amazing cam with tremendous features. In the right hands - for HD it performs just as well as anything you would see on broadcast and for SD it will take your work to a whole new level. Just don’t shoot in “Auto” anything. As a professional, I’m sure you will be in Manual anyway…. just a heads up that the auto features are horrendous.

Also, be prepared to drop some coin. Some “must have” additional items will probably include the Canon Wide Angle, an HV20, a Lanc remote, HD monitors, and a whole new computer when you become addicted to the HD footage.

August 8th, 2007, 03:45 PM	#16
John Welsh Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA & Cologne, GER Posts: 47	I think i made a decision: I'll wait for the next canon cameras. Maybe there'll be something like H1, but not as expensive as it. (I read Steven sold his H1, maybe he is and you all are right that a1 is a wonder, I'll think again) and anyways thank you all for replies regards

August 8th, 2007, 05:18 PM	#17
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	Hi John. I moved from XL2 to A1 last december, and I totally agree with you that the XL2 is better for SD. The pictures are somehow more solid with the XL2 and don't have that shifting/smearing of fine details that happens sometimes with the A1 when you move the camera. But I would probably agree with your decision to wait for the next generation of cameras to come along, if you don't need it now. The market for SD must be winding down so buying an expensive SD camera doesn't look like a good idea. Or maybe you could pick up a cheap second-hand XL2? Richard

August 9th, 2007, 04:42 AM	#21
Bill Busby Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 959	Ahh... ok sorry. You made no mention of any 3D compositing, so it read a bit funny to me. Bill

August 9th, 2007, 09:25 AM	#23
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	Thanks Richard, my footage was actually shot in SD. Here is the link to my original question http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...3&goto=newpost

August 9th, 2007, 09:27 AM	#24
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	when something is broadcast or projected, there is typically anywhere from a 5% to a 20% crop from the source image. if you’re going to shoot a "film-like" project, "dark corners" will be the least of your worries. You'll be cropping out boom mikes, crew, and lights... on a good day. don't judge a camera based on how it performs with a third party adapter. nobody in the A1 group is going to tell you to buy the XL2. and for the record, the amount of pixels has quite a bit to do with image quality. i just shot this clip below in grand cayman – HDV to SD, 24f, Canon WA. i've included a wide range of shots to show color, dof, skin tones, bright and low light, and range. The XL1 or 2 does not come close to the image quality of the A1. Any grain present is due to the stream. The source is crystal clear. http://uncutvideo.aol.com/videos/312...898245?index=0

August 10th, 2007, 02:54 PM	#25
Rob Katz Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: new york city, new york Posts: 594	eric- those were lovely images. thank u for sharing your efforts. as someone who has not had a single client ask for hd, i'm still working in the world of sd. my work is usually screened at presentations or has been used for ntsc sd broadcast. that said, i'm still looking at the a1 but mostly for sd acquisition (and for any hd that rolls my way) based on your obvious ability to extract lovely images from the a1, would you please explain some of your workflow, specifically the presets used on the interior and exterior shots AND most importantly, the propose of down-converting the hdv into sd. sorry if i've asked a newbie-ish question. i'm still doing my homework. thanks in advance be well rob katz harvest films

August 10th, 2007, 04:20 PM	#26
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	Rob, I was actually in the same situation when I picked up the A1. The cam performs best in HDV. The SD options are pretty much useless if you’re coming from another Canon prosumer model. I’d advise against shooting anything in SD with it, but HDV and the HDV to SD is outstanding. My workflow is to record in HDV- either 60i or 24f depending on the subject. I don’t really use presets. I’ve created my own on the fly, mostly just adding some saturation. The color temp controls are usually enough in most cases.. and to be on the safe side I try to shoot as flat as possible. I use Vegas 4 and 7 and add any color correction in post. Everything on my sample is right from the cam. I just shot it and it’s still on my timeline. For SD down, I import with an HV20 and set it for DV OUT. It down converts the 24f material nicely and I can also monitor the HDV version via the HDMI. Once in Vegas, it’s just like editing SD/.avi, but with more options. With the pixel ratio you can do 16x9, 4x3, or 4x3 with a 16x9 mask and implement some track motion. I will also go back and selectively cap some HDV footage for HD B-Roll. For the spa interiors, I was at 1/48 shutter and even down to 1/24 at times with db from 0 to +3. I used mostly natural lighting to preserve the ambience of the spa. In the darker areas I used a single 200w lamp bounced off the ceiling and set the color temp a bit warmer in-camera. The cam is quite clean in low light, though I wouldn’t push it past +6. Exterior was shot at 1/48 with the in-camera ND to 1/32 at 0db. F-Stop was probably 2-5. Some of those shots may have been in 60i too with typical settings. I’m also overexposing my shots by a notch or two. I find I get cleaner results. If you are on the fence about the A1, don’t be. It’s an amazing cam with tremendous features. In the right hands - for HD it performs just as well as anything you would see on broadcast and for SD it will take your work to a whole new level. Just don’t shoot in “Auto” anything. As a professional, I’m sure you will be in Manual anyway…. just a heads up that the auto features are horrendous. Also, be prepared to drop some coin. Some “must have” additional items will probably include the Canon Wide Angle, an HV20, a Lanc remote, HD monitors, and a whole new computer when you become addicted to the HD footage.