Shooting Concerts - Detailed Inquiries

[Mats Frendahl]

Originally Posted by Don Palomaki

> Is there anyway to manually shut off the mic <

Or set the input to XLR and connect connect anything.

Yes, but I was considering the physical sound blast

Originally Posted by Don Palomaki

> Is there anyway to manually shut off the mic <
Ability of the mic to survive (i.e., not be damaged by) a rifle report will depend of the mic position relative to the muzzle and bore and what your are shooting. Is the mic being hit directly by muzzle blast

I think it will be mostly shotguns on a skeet range shot from about 10 meters. You would normally not be very close to the muzzle. The pure blast dies very quickly but the sound travels, but naturally dies with distance rapidly. I'll measure with dB meter first perhaps. A big bore hunting rifle in close compartment is another mater. This I have to measure first.

Originally Posted by Don Palomaki

> Is there anyway to manually shut off the mic <
The A1 mic itself will probably clip the audio somewhere between 125 and 135 dB SPL due to the limits of the electronics in the microphone itself (not the camcorder preamps). There are mics made for picking up very loud sounds, e.g., the instrument mics used on percussion. If your intent is to record the gunshot sound, consider using a mic designed for high SPLs (e.g., 145 dB SPL at 1% distortion).

OK, interesting. The main concern was actually not to get the A1 mic destroyed by blast (sound, not shock wave from muzzle). I'll test record with an Edirol first.

Hmmm... we have deviated from concert a bit - but still interesting IMHO.

[Don Palomaki]

At 10m from the shotgun, should not be a problem as far a damage to the mic goes (but the mic may saturate durign the transient) provide it doesn't get hit by stray pellets or bits of a clay.

BTW: I meant to say ...and NOT connect anything to the XLR input...

[Juni Zhao]

Can the mic (either shotgun or on-camera mic) really be physically damaged by exceptionally loud sound??

[Rene Brunken]

Originally Posted by Juni Zhao

that exactly happened to me 2 days ago. Even during the shooting I noticed that the jitter was just going with the rhythm of the drum beat, but I could do nothing about it. I am searching for a solution for next similar shooting....
But the way, the focus was on manual all the time.

I also have noticed this behavior. I switched from tripod to handheld because i thought the vibrations were coming from the ground but it seems that the air waves have such energy that the camcorder itself vibrates.

An other possible cause can be the loose suspension of the build-in mikrophone.
I put an elastic rubber ring betwee the mike and housing.
Also check that the attenuation switch is on.

My only solution is: take as much distance from the sound source as is possible and use some more zoom.

[Bill Pryor]

I did a recruiting film for a police department one time, back in the Betacam SP days, shooting with my BVW300. They had a shooting range that involved concrete bunkers, trees, etc., where the cops would run and jump between barriers in pursuit of a target. I thought it would be very cool if I sat on the ground and got a wide angle closeup as the cop jumped out from behing a wall and fired with his .45 right over the camera. We rehearsed it a few times, and then he did it.

The concussion from the gun was so strong it actually knocked me over backwards. I had one channel way down low, and it's audio was useable. But there was a glitch in the tape where the concussion had caused the tape to lift off the recording head, apparently. It happened right at where the sound was the loudest. It wasn't too noticeable in the shot because of the loud noise and how the camera jerked. But not long after that I had head problems and had to have a head replacement on the camera.There was a hairline crack in a recording head.

Oh yeah, and I couldn't hear anything for a couple of hours. I'm not as dumb now as I was back then and would make that a very long lens shot today.

[Mats Frendahl]

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

But there was a glitch in the tape where the concussion had caused the tape to lift off the recording head, apparently. It happened right at where the sound was the loudest. It wasn't too noticeable in the shot because of the loud noise and how the camera jerked. But not long after that I had head problems and had to have a head replacement on the camera.There was a hairline crack in a recording head.

How far from the gun itself where you?

I think 16:9 format will be good for a skeet range since it have "widescreen" proportions. I must get a pol. filter to enhance sky and gras, possibly it will also enhance the red clay targets.

[Bill Pryor]

I was maybe a foot in front, and under it. Way too close. But it was a cool shot.

[Mats Frendahl]

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

I was maybe a foot in front, and under it. Way too close. But it was a cool shot.

I can imagine. Perhaps a well-polished 1/2-inch glas would have been used today if you ever made it again?

[Mats Frendahl]

Bill,
Measured today - 92 dB some meters from shooter.
Although not very strong the shot/sound has a "agressive" characteristics for the human ear. I sampled it and edited it at home. I will use it as "FX" to the A1-footage as it allows me to stand at a distance with the A1 and still get the audio ok.

[Paul V Doherty]

I shoot a *lot* of concerts and production shows, here's my take on the subject:

1) Shoot progressive. This is a MUST. You want to convey a sense that the event was "larger than life", some people call it "more real than real". Progressive is part of that "look". For NTSC-land that means 24p, 24f or whatever your camera calls it. For PAL-land that means 25p, 25f or whatever.

2) Use Cinegamma to maximise your latitude. Concerts have extremes of contrast in the lighting.

3) Find out what type of lights are used. Tungsten lights such as PAR cans and low-end pro lighting fixtures obviously require a tungsten setting for your white balance. HMI lights are typically at the high-end of pro lighting and actually burn at regular daylight temperature, so set for daylight. Varilites and other top-shelf lights are in this category. Also, if there is a follow-spot then you should white balance to that, regardless of the other lights. Most follow-spots include an inbuilt filter to make them output a daylight colour temperature if the lamp itself is not a daylight HMI. If you white-balance to tungsten for all the other lights but the follow-spot is HMI or daylight then every time you film the main action in the follow spot it will have a horrible blue cast to it. Since you might not get the chance to perform a manual white balance under the follow spot or main stage wash, its best to learn the difference between the types of lighting used on stage thesedays, and learn enough to converse with the lighting operator so you can ask exactly what types of lights are in use.

4) Stick to 1/48th shutter for 24p or 1/50 shutter for 25p. This is not negotiable. If there's not enough light for these shutter speeds then the show is not good enough to film, IMHO!!!

5) You MUST get a soundboard recording. This is not negotiable either. The camera mic is crap, and it will probably overload under the excessive volume if you are shooting from the front row or on stage. I recommend buying a MiniDisc walkman or DAT walkman and be nice to the sound operator - ask for a Front Of House mix, stereo if possible - even if the FOH is in mono, ask the sound operator to pan the instruments into a sensible stereo mix. Try to also get a *seperate* ambient recording from near the soundboard with a good stereo mic. The Shure VP88 is king in that regard. Then you can mix the dry soundboard with the ambient mic in post. *Always* use manual levels for both the soundboard and ambient recordings.

6) Try to get a locked-off wide shot for safeties and cut-aways, even if it's on a crappy camcorder it's better than nothing. Then you can turn a boring 1 camera shoot into a slightly less boring 2 camera shoot and no-one will notice there's actually only 1 "real" camera being operated.

7) Distribute your cameras sensibly.... there's little point having all your cameras in the front row, or in the house or whatever. For a classic two camera setup place 1 in the front row with full freedom of movement to cover the entire width of the stage and place the other on stage with freedom to cover both sides by running across the back if necessary. Make friends with security and make sure everyone is informed that you are official camera operators and should be given full access to shoot whatever angles the band wants. You don't want some over-zealous bouncer giving you grief off stage. For the front row camera try a wide-angle or fisheye for those classic "rock god" shots. If you have a spare camera and tripod, a locked shot on the drummer is always a good option. Drummers are rarely boring to watch! Some of the best 2 or 3 camera shoots are the concerts from the late 60's and 1970's..... Woodstock, Monterey Pop, Isle Of Wight, Jimi Hendrix Plays Berkelely, Led Zeppelin 2 DVD set - especially the Royal Albert Hall concert are all good examples.

8) Plan ahead with your shots - get some crowd shots and general lighting rig cutaways - they can be cut-in almost anywhere and don't have to actually match the song being performed at the time! Be creative and abstract..... shoot the guitarist's foot on his wah-wah pedal, or the drummer on the kick-drum pedal. If the band permits you to have a camera on-stage, go wild with it - put a fisheye on the cam and get some crazy closeups and views down the neck of the guitars or the keyboard.... if the musicians are playful and aware of the camera hopefully they will play up to it. Do the classic 360 degree rotate, but don't overdo it or you will make your viewers sick! If your cams are small, shove one right in the drum kit somewhere for some wild shots of the drummer. If the lighting operator shines blinders on the audience between songs that is your best chance for good crowd shots from an on-stage camera - hopefully the first few rows of people will play up to the camera.

9) If at all possible, get a camera into normally off-limits parts of the venue for interesting angles - such as in the lighting rig, or the balcony, or the follow spot perch. An overhead cam strung from the lighting rig is always interesting for cutaways.

10) Watch Pink Floyd "Pulse" for ideas about exposure.... that show was as much about the lighting rig as it was about the musicians, and it was shot with the lighting in mind. If you are shooting a small band with a small lighting rig, then focus on the band. If you're in a more advanced show you might want to consider giving the lighting some screen-time as much as the musicians.

Just my $0.02

[Mats Frendahl]

Originally Posted by Paul V Doherty

I shoot a *lot* of concerts and production shows, here's my take on the subject:

1) Shoot progressive. This is a MUST. You want to convey a sense that the event was "larger than life", some people call it "more real than real". Progressive is part of that "look". For NTSC-land that means 24p, 24f or whatever your camera calls it. For PAL-land that means 25p, 25f or whatever.

What is the advantage using 25F (as Canon calls it) compared to standard mode?I think that the PAL version of A1 records in 50i as standard, not 25p. What do I benefit using 25F instead of 50i?

Originally Posted by Paul V Doherty

2) Use Cinegamma to maximise your latitude. Concerts have extremes of contrast in the lighting.

You mean GAM: Cine1 (or Cine2)? Which one?

Originally Posted by Paul V Doherty

7) Distribute your cameras sensibly.... there's little point having all your cameras in the front row, or in the house or whatever. For a classic two camera setup place 1 in the front row with full freedom of movement to cover the entire width of the stage and place the other on stage with freedom to cover both sides by running across the back if necessary.

I have read about the "180-degree rule" from a pro from Swedish National Television. Anyone that heard/practised this?

[Paul V Doherty]

Most people seem to agree 25F and 25p look the same.... it sure beats interlaced!
The aim is to replicate the "unreal" look of film's 24fps 1/48 sec. shutter. Most people think this is part of the reason films look hyper-real or somehow seperated from our boring reality.
Get some concert DVD's and you will quickly notice the difference between those shot interlaced (they look like a news or sports broadcast) and those shot progressive or on film (they simply look like they have higher production values and the show looks better than it probably really was in reality).

The Led Zeppelin 2 disc DVD set is the perfect example of the difference between interlaced and progressive. Many Zep fans hate the Song Remains The Same concert film (called "Madison Square Garden" on the 2 disc DVD) because it is a less than satisfactory performance from the band, but I prefer it to the musically superior Earl's Court video footage purely because it just looks so much better being shot on film! The Earl's Court video looks like crap, it looks like every other lame live TV broadcast. Actually it was taken from a 2" Quadruplex tape of a very early type of giant-screen IMAG at the concert.

I cry everytime I see Pink Floyd's "Pulse" DVD...... why oh why didn't they shoot such an important event on film? HD cameras were not invented at the time (1994).......

I don't know about your particular camera... I own an XL2 and HV20 - both shoot true progressive.

As far as gamma, chose a setting which stretches the blacks and has a low knee for a gentle compression on the highlights.
You can test this by filming a static scene with slight blowouts on the highlights and deep shadows - adjust your your gamma to maximise the detail in the shadows and minimise the area of the highlight blowout.

[Paul V Doherty]

Can you elaborate on the 180 degree rule? I've not heard of it

[Mats Frendahl]

Originally Posted by Paul V Doherty

Can you elaborate on the 180 degree rule? I've not heard of it

Sure can. I read it on the web, posted by a guy at Nat. TV/Sweden.

Breif:
"
Look at the complete stage from above.
Draw a line across the stage (at "some angle" to some of the "actors")
Do not cross the line with any camera
"

Here's the link - In Swedish - but with a good picture

http://www.brollopstorget.se/Fotogra...inspelning.php

[Bill Pryor]

It's the first thing you learn in a filmmaking class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_degree_rule