Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 at DVinfo.net

Rob Safran · January 5th, 2013, 03:51 PM

I've had my XF105 and XF305 for a few months now and spent several weeks pouring through all the posts on CP settings after purchasing and watching the Vortex Media training videos. I also have the large set of warm cards. I've setup a small studio and have been trying to match the XF105 and XF305 using the various CP settings (awesome work to all that supplied information).

I decided to stick with the BBC settings as a starting point except I set the Knee Point to 95. I see similar results with CP Off, Truvid and XFMojo which have values for both cameras.

I'm getting very different values when I manually set the WB. I zoom into the white warm card and hold the white balance button with Custom A selected. I have two Interfit Super 5 Cool Lights using soft boxes that are 5500K. The XF305 is in the 5-6K range depending on how many bulbs are on and how close I am to the warm card. The XF105 is always around 1K less. The XF305 seems to have a blue cast when zoomed into the white card, but looks white in Premiere.

The XF305 seems to me to have a red cast compared with the XF105. The settings that best matched the XF305 to the XF105 were Color Matrix Phase at -10 to -18 or setting Color Matrix R-G from the recommended -8 to around -40 on the XF305. The color of my background wall and some red and blue objects in the scene, including my arm and hand, are closer to what I see with my eye, external monitor and Premiere Pro CS6 from the XF105. I have only shot indoors so far as I live in Seattle. It will be interesting to see how they do outdoors when we get some sun.

XF105: CP Off - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...kNRQXV3QmxwTkk
XF305: CP Off - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...3gwSnRNWS1CSEU
XF105: CP BBC - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...XJESFdjT0EyUEU
XF305: CP BBC - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...XUxSHZhUTJoSm8

I'd appreciate any insights you have regarding the WB disparity and what CP settings you've found to match the cameras.

Thanks,
Rob

Rob Safran · January 9th, 2013, 11:41 AM

I called Canon CPS today and they suggested I remove the protective lens filter and do a reset to factory settings with a paperclip on both cameras. I'm going to try that tonight and will post the results.

Does anyone have both cameras that could share how well their cameras match WB and color?

Thanks,
Rob

Steve Hontz · January 9th, 2013, 10:11 PM

Hi Rob,

I also have an XF 305 and a 105. I have found a similar mismatch. Shooting the exact same scene, under the same lighting, with the cameras swapped out in the same tripod, set to the same settings, I get a white balance value of 4900K on my 305 and 6300K on my 105. And the colors are slightly different.

I tried several of the custom profiles found on the net (including the Vortex ones - I have the DVD set also) and shot some still lifes with both cameras and carefully examined the footage side by side to see the differences. I ended up tweaking one of the profiles I found to suit my taste, and tweaked each camera separately so they matched up better.

When I get a chance, I'll post what values I ended up using.

Rob Safran · January 10th, 2013, 11:25 AM

Thanks Steve, I'd really appreciate having your settings.

Also, thanks to Andy for doing a similar WB test on his XF105 and XF305 and pointing me to some resources on the web.

Rob

Ian Chapman · February 7th, 2013, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Hontz

Hi Rob,

I also have an XF 305 and a 105. I have found a similar mismatch. Shooting the exact same scene, under the same lighting, with the cameras swapped out in the same tripod, set to the same settings, I get a white balance value of 4900K on my 305 and 6300K on my 105. And the colors are slightly different.

I tried several of the custom profiles found on the net (including the Vortex ones - I have the DVD set also) and shot some still lifes with both cameras and carefully examined the footage side by side to see the differences. I ended up tweaking one of the profiles I found to suit my taste, and tweaked each camera separately so they matched up better.

When I get a chance, I'll post what values I ended up using.

Steve...any chance you could find time to post your settings? I have the same problem and would love a solution if you have one? thanks

Andy Solaini · February 10th, 2013, 07:59 PM

I'd be interested to see the settings too. My XF300 and XF100 both produce nice images (in good light) but they don't look the same as each other. This means fiddling around in post which is bad is a speedy turn around is needed.

Ian Chapman · February 12th, 2013, 11:41 AM

sent you a PM

Steve Hontz · February 18th, 2013, 10:06 AM

Sorry it took so long to post my settings. They're in the attached ZIP file. The profile I use is "S&L 1". You'll notice some other profiles in there that I've gleaned from several sources - thanks to all of those that share what worked for them!

My profile isn't anything special - I just did a bunch of test shots, took some of the other profiles, stirred them together, and adjusted the settings until I got what I liked. I seem to shoot a lot in less than ideal lighting, so these settings may not work so well outdoors or if you have good lighting.

The attached photo shows the XF305 on the left, the XF105 on the right. I think it's a pretty good match.

Andy Solaini · February 18th, 2013, 09:18 PM

Thanks for posting Steve. The results you are getting look very much better than the matching I can get with the profile I'm currently using.

Daniel Hall · February 22nd, 2013, 11:22 AM

Steve,
Thanks so much for posting those CP files. Great to have the BBC versions on the same SD card as well.

I am finding it quite difficult to get consistent white balancing between my XF105 and XF305, even when using white cards and Warm Cards from Vortex. I am using mostly daylight balanced softboxes and LED lights but have a consistent greenish cast vs. the XF305, even when balancing both with the same card. Anyone else have similar experience? I guess so since that is why the thread is started! Steve's profiles CAN look very good/consistent but white balance values seem more difficult to figure out.

Another puzzling thing on the XF105 is that I have white balanced against a card and got a certain "K" value. I have then switched to the PRESET value and changed that manually using the joystick to the SAME value as I got with the card and yet the color cast will look different! Does white balancing against a card change other parameters besides just the "K" value behind the scenes? Could not figure that one out.

Steve Hontz · February 22nd, 2013, 06:10 PM

Daniel, I did the exact same thing you did - i.e., white balance both cameras, right next to each other, under the same lighting, and got two different K values. Then, if I try to dial in the same K value so they match, they definitely don't look the same.

I think the cameras are just different. My profile doesn't really address the issue, but it suited my immediate needs and I haven't had a chance to go back and run some more tests to see if I could make them closer.

Al Bergstein · February 24th, 2013, 11:30 AM

Rob, your samples look about what I would expect with both cameras. I would say, without a great deal of technical understanding about the guts of the two cameras, that you are seeing the 'sensor tone', is how I say it. Canon for some reason calls this the normal balance of the sensor. All cameras seem to have a slight tone favorite. Panny GH3s seem to favor a blueish cast. Panny HMC150s tend to make browns more red out of the box. Canon seem to favor the reds on the 305s and the 5Ds. 105s seem to favor,ever so slightly, green. I don't see it so much in the faces, but the large areas of a color, like wood floors on a stage, and somewhat in large shadow areas, such as the wall seems to be. Subtle, but there. And I agree with Steve. The cameras are two different cameras with two very different sensors and electronics. Steve's stage shots are about as good as you can hope for, and frankly, I think they are "matched" to my eye. Flesh tones are about the same, as are the blues. So I tweak the color profiles slightly to offset this. Use your camera scopes to do that. There is a discussion somewhere on the boards about doing that. And it is really useful. Using the scopes you can dial in your balance just swell. I believe that it needs you to fill the screen with a grey card, not white, and work to center the red dot to the middle. You will see the slight color shift present when you first start, leaning one way or the other. When I finally centered it and altered the color balance, it all fell into place. Sorry I can't remember where I saw that advice, but check around. Once I tuned to that, my 305 stopped leaning to red.

UPDATE: Here's the post I referred to, since I was slightly off on my technique. Check it out. Especially the post from Martin.
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xf...-wb-xf305.html

Out of the box, my 305 has a distinctly reddish (pinkish) cast with no CP or tweaking at all. I dial down the red specifically to cut this out. I call it a "Canon" look. It does not even come close to matching, say a GH3. So if you shoot between two cameras, spend some time working it out. There is nothing inherently wrong with this. If you buy two 305s, I've never had problems matching the look without any work. I think that if you want to shoot two cameras and get a match without spending hours in post, you should buy two of the same cameras. I've come to that conclusion after years of trying.

My clients don't see the difference. But I've got great stage shots with both. I would recommend considering sharpening the 105 in post when trying to match the 305. The 105 single sensor is just not as sharp. Also, don't get me started on the lame ND on the 105. I would never buy another camera with a similar electronic ND. Just not responsive when the chips are down.

Rob Safran · March 24th, 2013, 12:06 PM

Hi Steve,

Thanks for posting your profiles. I installed them on my cameras and don't see a profile named S&L 1.

The ones I see are:

SD1: VORTEX_A
SD2: BBC_Vid
SD3: BBC_File
SD4: J. Cine12
SD5: DEEP CLR

I unzipped the files and overwrote all the profiles on my SD card with the ones from your zip file. Not sure if it's something I'm missing.

Thanks,
Rob

David Dixon · March 24th, 2013, 09:22 PM

If you open the CAMSET folder, then open the CAMSET.TXT file in a text editor, it shows all the settings for S&L 1. You could use that to make your own CP file. Not quite as convenient, but still lets you try it.

On another issue - I'm increasingly enjoying learning to adjust in post. I don't feel qualified to call what I do Color Grading :-) but I'm considering breaking my long standing approach of getting a saturated, contrasty look in-camera, since I always tweak it anyway.

What's the general consensus on this? Is it correct that there's nothing I can achieve in-camera that I can't also achieve by shooting flat and adjusting levels/curves/saturation/sharpness/etc. in post?? Are the only factors just that doing it in post takes longer, but you have more freedom since you don't have a very baked in look to start from?

And for folks that shoot this way, what do you use as the starting point for your grading??? OFF, BBC, what?

Thanks

Andy Solaini · March 25th, 2013, 03:14 PM

David I find the BBC settings a good starting point for a flat profile.

I have found that whatever profiles I am using (flat or not) the one thing that is absolutely critical is getting the white balance set correctly. If it's off it makes any post processing a real pain in the rear. I come from a still background where I have almost never taken any of my DSLRs out of auto WB and only ever had to change it in post when I deliberately wanted to alter the WB. The XF video cameras are not at all like this.

January 5th, 2013, 03:51 PM	#1
Rob Safran Tourist Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Kirkland Posts: 4	Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 I've had my XF105 and XF305 for a few months now and spent several weeks pouring through all the posts on CP settings after purchasing and watching the Vortex Media training videos. I also have the large set of warm cards. I've setup a small studio and have been trying to match the XF105 and XF305 using the various CP settings (awesome work to all that supplied information). I decided to stick with the BBC settings as a starting point except I set the Knee Point to 95. I see similar results with CP Off, Truvid and XFMojo which have values for both cameras. I'm getting very different values when I manually set the WB. I zoom into the white warm card and hold the white balance button with Custom A selected. I have two Interfit Super 5 Cool Lights using soft boxes that are 5500K. The XF305 is in the 5-6K range depending on how many bulbs are on and how close I am to the warm card. The XF105 is always around 1K less. The XF305 seems to have a blue cast when zoomed into the white card, but looks white in Premiere. The XF305 seems to me to have a red cast compared with the XF105. The settings that best matched the XF305 to the XF105 were Color Matrix Phase at -10 to -18 or setting Color Matrix R-G from the recommended -8 to around -40 on the XF305. The color of my background wall and some red and blue objects in the scene, including my arm and hand, are closer to what I see with my eye, external monitor and Premiere Pro CS6 from the XF105. I have only shot indoors so far as I live in Seattle. It will be interesting to see how they do outdoors when we get some sun. XF105: CP Off - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...kNRQXV3QmxwTkk XF305: CP Off - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...3gwSnRNWS1CSEU XF105: CP BBC - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...XJESFdjT0EyUEU XF305: CP BBC - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...XUxSHZhUTJoSm8 I'd appreciate any insights you have regarding the WB disparity and what CP settings you've found to match the cameras. Thanks, Rob

January 9th, 2013, 11:41 AM	#2
Rob Safran Tourist Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Kirkland Posts: 4	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 I called Canon CPS today and they suggested I remove the protective lens filter and do a reset to factory settings with a paperclip on both cameras. I'm going to try that tonight and will post the results. Does anyone have both cameras that could share how well their cameras match WB and color? Thanks, Rob

January 9th, 2013, 10:11 PM	#3
Steve Hontz New Boot Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Peoria, Arizona Posts: 22	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 Hi Rob, I also have an XF 305 and a 105. I have found a similar mismatch. Shooting the exact same scene, under the same lighting, with the cameras swapped out in the same tripod, set to the same settings, I get a white balance value of 4900K on my 305 and 6300K on my 105. And the colors are slightly different. I tried several of the custom profiles found on the net (including the Vortex ones - I have the DVD set also) and shot some still lifes with both cameras and carefully examined the footage side by side to see the differences. I ended up tweaking one of the profiles I found to suit my taste, and tweaked each camera separately so they matched up better. When I get a chance, I'll post what values I ended up using.

January 10th, 2013, 11:25 AM	#4
Rob Safran Tourist Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Kirkland Posts: 4	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 Thanks Steve, I'd really appreciate having your settings. Also, thanks to Andy for doing a similar WB test on his XF105 and XF305 and pointing me to some resources on the web. Rob

February 10th, 2013, 07:59 PM	#6
Andy Solaini Major Player Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 223	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 I'd be interested to see the settings too. My XF300 and XF100 both produce nice images (in good light) but they don't look the same as each other. This means fiddling around in post which is bad is a speedy turn around is needed.

February 12th, 2013, 11:41 AM	#7
Ian Chapman Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: uk manchester Posts: 60	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 sent you a PM

February 18th, 2013, 09:18 PM	#9
Andy Solaini Major Player Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 223	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 Thanks for posting Steve. The results you are getting look very much better than the matching I can get with the profile I'm currently using.

February 22nd, 2013, 11:22 AM	#10
Daniel Hall Tourist Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Stonington CT Posts: 3	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 Steve, Thanks so much for posting those CP files. Great to have the BBC versions on the same SD card as well. I am finding it quite difficult to get consistent white balancing between my XF105 and XF305, even when using white cards and Warm Cards from Vortex. I am using mostly daylight balanced softboxes and LED lights but have a consistent greenish cast vs. the XF305, even when balancing both with the same card. Anyone else have similar experience? I guess so since that is why the thread is started! Steve's profiles CAN look very good/consistent but white balance values seem more difficult to figure out. Another puzzling thing on the XF105 is that I have white balanced against a card and got a certain "K" value. I have then switched to the PRESET value and changed that manually using the joystick to the SAME value as I got with the card and yet the color cast will look different! Does white balancing against a card change other parameters besides just the "K" value behind the scenes? Could not figure that one out.

February 22nd, 2013, 06:10 PM	#11
Steve Hontz New Boot Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Peoria, Arizona Posts: 22	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 Daniel, I did the exact same thing you did - i.e., white balance both cameras, right next to each other, under the same lighting, and got two different K values. Then, if I try to dial in the same K value so they match, they definitely don't look the same. I think the cameras are just different. My profile doesn't really address the issue, but it suited my immediate needs and I haven't had a chance to go back and run some more tests to see if I could make them closer.

February 24th, 2013, 11:30 AM	#12
Al Bergstein Major Player Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Port Townsend, WA Posts: 456	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 Rob, your samples look about what I would expect with both cameras. I would say, without a great deal of technical understanding about the guts of the two cameras, that you are seeing the 'sensor tone', is how I say it. Canon for some reason calls this the normal balance of the sensor. All cameras seem to have a slight tone favorite. Panny GH3s seem to favor a blueish cast. Panny HMC150s tend to make browns more red out of the box. Canon seem to favor the reds on the 305s and the 5Ds. 105s seem to favor,ever so slightly, green. I don't see it so much in the faces, but the large areas of a color, like wood floors on a stage, and somewhat in large shadow areas, such as the wall seems to be. Subtle, but there. And I agree with Steve. The cameras are two different cameras with two very different sensors and electronics. Steve's stage shots are about as good as you can hope for, and frankly, I think they are "matched" to my eye. Flesh tones are about the same, as are the blues. So I tweak the color profiles slightly to offset this. Use your camera scopes to do that. There is a discussion somewhere on the boards about doing that. And it is really useful. Using the scopes you can dial in your balance just swell. I believe that it needs you to fill the screen with a grey card, not white, and work to center the red dot to the middle. You will see the slight color shift present when you first start, leaning one way or the other. When I finally centered it and altered the color balance, it all fell into place. Sorry I can't remember where I saw that advice, but check around. Once I tuned to that, my 305 stopped leaning to red. UPDATE: Here's the post I referred to, since I was slightly off on my technique. Check it out. Especially the post from Martin. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xf...-wb-xf305.html Out of the box, my 305 has a distinctly reddish (pinkish) cast with no CP or tweaking at all. I dial down the red specifically to cut this out. I call it a "Canon" look. It does not even come close to matching, say a GH3. So if you shoot between two cameras, spend some time working it out. There is nothing inherently wrong with this. If you buy two 305s, I've never had problems matching the look without any work. I think that if you want to shoot two cameras and get a match without spending hours in post, you should buy two of the same cameras. I've come to that conclusion after years of trying. My clients don't see the difference. But I've got great stage shots with both. I would recommend considering sharpening the 105 in post when trying to match the 305. The 105 single sensor is just not as sharp. Also, don't get me started on the lame ND on the 105. I would never buy another camera with a similar electronic ND. Just not responsive when the chips are down. Last edited by Al Bergstein; February 24th, 2013 at 12:10 PM. Reason: Added link to similar post on the subject.

March 24th, 2013, 12:06 PM	#13
Rob Safran Tourist Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Kirkland Posts: 4	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 Hi Steve, Thanks for posting your profiles. I installed them on my cameras and don't see a profile named S&L 1. The ones I see are: SD1: VORTEX_A SD2: BBC_Vid SD3: BBC_File SD4: J. Cine12 SD5: DEEP CLR I unzipped the files and overwrote all the profiles on my SD card with the ones from your zip file. Not sure if it's something I'm missing. Thanks, Rob

March 24th, 2013, 09:22 PM	#14
David Dixon Major Player Join Date: May 2011 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 495	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 If you open the CAMSET folder, then open the CAMSET.TXT file in a text editor, it shows all the settings for S&L 1. You could use that to make your own CP file. Not quite as convenient, but still lets you try it. On another issue - I'm increasingly enjoying learning to adjust in post. I don't feel qualified to call what I do Color Grading :-) but I'm considering breaking my long standing approach of getting a saturated, contrasty look in-camera, since I always tweak it anyway. What's the general consensus on this? Is it correct that there's nothing I can achieve in-camera that I can't also achieve by shooting flat and adjusting levels/curves/saturation/sharpness/etc. in post?? Are the only factors just that doing it in post takes longer, but you have more freedom since you don't have a very baked in look to start from? And for folks that shoot this way, what do you use as the starting point for your grading??? OFF, BBC, what? Thanks

March 25th, 2013, 03:14 PM	#15
Andy Solaini Major Player Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 223	Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305 David I find the BBC settings a good starting point for a flat profile. I have found that whatever profiles I am using (flat or not) the one thing that is absolutely critical is getting the white balance set correctly. If it's off it makes any post processing a real pain in the rear. I come from a still background where I have almost never taken any of my DSLRs out of auto WB and only ever had to change it in post when I deliberately wanted to alter the WB. The XF video cameras are not at all like this.