Looking at stepping up from XF100 to XF300

Les Wilson · July 13th, 2012, 06:49 AM

Michael, since you are now looking at large sensor cameras like 5dm3 and fs-100 and this is a hobby, there's a camera to consider that will save you money and be perfectly appropriate for shooting a couple angles that your friends can use to review their performance.

Much time has been spent here discussing the video half of the recording but few musicians I know are very interested in that. They want to know how it sounds. DSLRs are hard to shoot with and adding the gear to get good audio is just one of the reasons. So keeping a camera with professional XLR inputs will simplify things yet give you high quality audio directly into your recording.

Take a look at the Panasonic AF-100. It's a large sensor camera so you get the low light performance but without the headaches of the 5DM3 and extra gear it requires. There's a rebate on them right now and the pricing for two of them with a lenses could save you from selling off some of that audio equipment. Since this is a proper camcorder (as opposed to a DSLR), you get a nice side mounted and adjustable LCD, XLR audio and some other things you'll appreciate. In fact, two of them give you 4 tracks of audio which could be helpful to your performers if each one is a specific mix from the sound board. Just a thought.

Stewart Hemley · July 14th, 2012, 05:37 AM

Something important to consider if you go the DSLR route: you can't leave some on for long without overheating the thing. EG, on the 5D TWO (not sure of the time for the THREE) its only about 12 minutes. So the idea of leaving it on and forgetting it is not feasible. You could leave a camcorder on (depending on the available recording media time) but then you need to try shooting hand held on a DSLR - not something I can do.

Michael Holmes · July 14th, 2012, 08:58 PM

Well, it has been a meandering process, but this usually works out in the end for me.
I have made my decisions, am awaiting gear, and I am very happy with where I have ended up.
We are blessed with so many amazing options from which to choose.

I have gone with two FS100 cameras, two Novaflex adapters for Nikon lenses, a Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 (for primary full band shots with stationary camera), a Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 (for close-ups with monopod "handheld"), and various accessories. I may well add a prime lens later.

I initially didn't think it important, but on reflection, I fully agree with the view that two identical cameras are a big plus:
- No matching issues
- Same file formats
- Same workflow processes
- Only one camera to master.

Once I decided on two identical cameras, I quickly opted for a camera made for video with proper audio connections, etc.

I looked hard at the FS700, but again two identical cameras ruled this out. The extra cost would have been $6k, 30% of my max budget. With the FS100, I am well below my max limit.
And the added features of the FS700 didn't seem that important for this particular task:
- I wouldn't expect to use the ultra slow motion, except for an occasional effect (yes, would be very nice to have)
- I wouldn't expect to use the ND filters for the low light work (although they would be even nicer to have)
- 4k.....who knows how this will progress.

I decided I can live with the inconvenience of handle problems, flush buttons, etc. to save $6k.
And for the low light work, the FS100 is marginally more sensitive than the FS700.

So, I am very happy with where I've ended up, and am counting the days until gear arrives. I am sure many of you would have ended up at a different place, since we all have our own weightings of pluses and minuses. For me, I believe this will work well.

Thanks so much for all the help!

Michael Holmes · July 14th, 2012, 09:24 PM

BTW, I'm late to the party but if anybody hasn't tried the training videos from Doug Jensen and Vortex Media, they are outstanding. I just received my FS100 video and have already learned enough to save me weeks/months of wasted motion.

Al Bergstein · July 14th, 2012, 11:35 PM

I think you'll be fine, just take time to fully learn the new gear. Not sure you spent enough tiime with the Xf100 to know it's capabilities. But, whatever. End of this thread, time totake your questions to the sony thread.

Noa Put · July 15th, 2012, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Holmes

I have gone with two FS100 cameras, two Novaflex adapters for Nikon lenses, a Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 (for primary full band shots with stationary camera), a Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 (for close-ups with monopod "handheld"), and various accessories. I may well add a prime lens later.

I think you made a good choice, f2.8 lenzes paired with a dslr could have been an issue in very dark places (unless you went for the 5dIII) but the fs100 can handle very high iso's and it will also give a bit more usable dof. As long as your subject doesn't move too much faster primes are a good choice too for some creative very shallow dof shots but I think your f2.8 lenzes will do the job just fine. And you at least got a videocamera now that will give you much more ease of use and don't have to deal with the limitation of a dslr, compared to your xf100 it will be quite a difference when the lights go out. Good luck with it :)

Nigel Barker · July 15th, 2012, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart Hemley

Something important to consider if you go the DSLR route: you can't leave some on for long without overheating the thing. EG, on the 5D TWO (not sure of the time for the THREE) its only about 12 minutes. So the idea of leaving it on and forgetting it is not feasible. You could leave a camcorder on (depending on the available recording media time) but then you need to try shooting hand held on a DSLR - not something I can do.

You are a bit misinformed. The recording limits are not due to the cameras overheating/ The limit on the 5D2 is due to FAT32 4GB file size limit which equates to about 12 minutes. The 5D3 can record for just under 30 minutes. This limit is Canon's decision to avoid tax as if capable of recording over 30 minutes it would be classed as a camcorder & subject to 4.9% EU customs duty.

Nigel Barker · July 15th, 2012, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

I think you made a good choice, f2.8 lenzes paired with a dslr could have been an issue in very dark places (unless you went for the 5dIII) but the fs100 can handle very high iso's and it will also give a bit more usable dof.

The crop factor on the FS100 is 1.5x so DoF will be deeper than a 5D2 but a little shallower than a Canon APS-C DSLR that have a crop factor of 1.6x.

Noa Put · July 15th, 2012, 04:08 AM

I was not really referring to the cropfactor but the fact that a f2.8 lens gives you more to work with when focussing then a f1.4 lens, something which also applies to a full frame camera. f1.4 is nice to have but for me only usable for creative close up shots, a f2.8 lens paired with a camera that can deal efficiently with high iso is the best you can get when working in very dark area's, f1.4 will only give you headaches when trying to nail the focus.

Stewart Hemley · July 16th, 2012, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Barker

You are a bit misinformed. The recording limits are not due to the cameras overheating/ The limit on the 5D2 is due to FAT32 4GB file size limit which equates to about 12 minutes. The 5D3 can record for just under 30 minutes. This limit is Canon's decision to avoid tax as if capable of recording over 30 minutes it would be classed as a camcorder & subject to 4.9% EU customs duty.

Hi Nigel

Thanks for correcting me, I didn't realise that. However, I wanted to find out how I had got it in my mind that long takes cause overheating. So I checked my 5D2 manual. On p 126 (sorry if I sound like a nerd!) it says:"When you shoot with Live View function for a long period the camera's internal temperature may increase and it can degrade the image quality." The next point says: "Before... shooting a movie, stop Live View shooting and wait several minutes. This is to prevent image degradation."

So I definitely think this is something to take into account. The manual adds that using high ISO will make the overheating worse. Going for several long takes in succession would certainly seem to lower image quality.

Nigel Barker · July 16th, 2012, 04:43 AM

Many of us shoot all day on 5Ds & encounter no issues with overheating. There is a theoretical increase in noise if the sensor is too hot. Shane Hurlburt describes in his blog shooting feature films with a shedload of 5D2s & swapping them over frequently to avoid any increased noise but it's not a consideration for most of use. I have only seen the red warning message come on once in over 3 years of 5D2 ownership & that was when it was left on a tripod in direct sunlight when the ambient temperature was 35C in the South of France.

Noa Put · July 29th, 2012, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Bergstein

Noa, i think you should go out, shoot some low light footage in some clubs and show us what you can do with that camera. It seems like a bunch of theory talk. When someone tells me how great their camera is at +1000 ISO i tend to want say, " show me. ". So please do.

Well, I"m back with some footage, it's still some very quick and dirty test as I don't have/had time to do a extended test, so it's nothing scientific but nevertheless it clearly shows the potential of that small sony cx730,

I hope I"m not sidetracking this thread too much as it was about canon camera's but since it was about shooting in very low lit rooms it's still abit relevant, Al also said that one time shooting with his canon xf camera's was not an option and that his 7d saved the day but below is proof that the cx730 can match dslr with a very fast lens with high iso and not displaying more noise. (iso 1600/3200 vs 24db on the sony) The Sony is at it's max low light settings (24db gain, 1/25th shutter) between 1600 and 3200 iso when the dslr has a 1/50th shutter, if I put the dslr at 1/30 shutter (not in the test) 1600 iso is closer to the sony at 24db gain)

It's a pity though that Al doesn't want to share his lens/settings on his 7d but as the 7d and t2i should have the same perfomance I doubt he used something faster the f1.4 and a iso higher then 3200 iso.

cx730 vs t2i - YouTube

Ofcourse you can push the dslr more with 6400 iso or a shutter of 1/30th but I think it's not even a fair comparison to put a large sensor/fast lens camera against a small sensor handicam but you have to be honest that the cx730 produces some remarkable results and should outperform many other camera's in low light that are much more expensive, including the xf100/300.

The test footage was done at a wedding where I was yesterday, it might not look that way but it was very dim, the sony easily held up giving footage that is brighter then what I could see with my own eyes.

July 13th, 2012, 06:49 AM	#61
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: Looking at stepping up from XF100 to XF300 Michael, since you are now looking at large sensor cameras like 5dm3 and fs-100 and this is a hobby, there's a camera to consider that will save you money and be perfectly appropriate for shooting a couple angles that your friends can use to review their performance. Much time has been spent here discussing the video half of the recording but few musicians I know are very interested in that. They want to know how it sounds. DSLRs are hard to shoot with and adding the gear to get good audio is just one of the reasons. So keeping a camera with professional XLR inputs will simplify things yet give you high quality audio directly into your recording. Take a look at the Panasonic AF-100. It's a large sensor camera so you get the low light performance but without the headaches of the 5DM3 and extra gear it requires. There's a rebate on them right now and the pricing for two of them with a lenses could save you from selling off some of that audio equipment. Since this is a proper camcorder (as opposed to a DSLR), you get a nice side mounted and adjustable LCD, XLR audio and some other things you'll appreciate. In fact, two of them give you 4 tracks of audio which could be helpful to your performers if each one is a specific mix from the sound board. Just a thought.

July 14th, 2012, 05:37 AM	#62
Stewart Hemley Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK and Japan Posts: 68	Re: Looking at stepping up from XF100 to XF300 Something important to consider if you go the DSLR route: you can't leave some on for long without overheating the thing. EG, on the 5D TWO (not sure of the time for the THREE) its only about 12 minutes. So the idea of leaving it on and forgetting it is not feasible. You could leave a camcorder on (depending on the available recording media time) but then you need to try shooting hand held on a DSLR - not something I can do.

July 14th, 2012, 08:58 PM	#63
Michael Holmes Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 51	Re: Decisions made, moving forward Well, it has been a meandering process, but this usually works out in the end for me. I have made my decisions, am awaiting gear, and I am very happy with where I have ended up. We are blessed with so many amazing options from which to choose. I have gone with two FS100 cameras, two Novaflex adapters for Nikon lenses, a Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 (for primary full band shots with stationary camera), a Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 (for close-ups with monopod "handheld"), and various accessories. I may well add a prime lens later. I initially didn't think it important, but on reflection, I fully agree with the view that two identical cameras are a big plus: - No matching issues - Same file formats - Same workflow processes - Only one camera to master. Once I decided on two identical cameras, I quickly opted for a camera made for video with proper audio connections, etc. I looked hard at the FS700, but again two identical cameras ruled this out. The extra cost would have been $6k, 30% of my max budget. With the FS100, I am well below my max limit. And the added features of the FS700 didn't seem that important for this particular task: - I wouldn't expect to use the ultra slow motion, except for an occasional effect (yes, would be very nice to have) - I wouldn't expect to use the ND filters for the low light work (although they would be even nicer to have) - 4k.....who knows how this will progress. I decided I can live with the inconvenience of handle problems, flush buttons, etc. to save $6k. And for the low light work, the FS100 is marginally more sensitive than the FS700. So, I am very happy with where I've ended up, and am counting the days until gear arrives. I am sure many of you would have ended up at a different place, since we all have our own weightings of pluses and minuses. For me, I believe this will work well. Thanks so much for all the help!

July 14th, 2012, 09:24 PM	#64
Michael Holmes Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 51	Re: Looking at stepping up from XF100 to XF300 BTW, I'm late to the party but if anybody hasn't tried the training videos from Doug Jensen and Vortex Media, they are outstanding. I just received my FS100 video and have already learned enough to save me weeks/months of wasted motion.

July 14th, 2012, 11:35 PM	#65
Al Bergstein Major Player Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Port Townsend, WA Posts: 456	Re: Looking at stepping up from XF100 to XF300 I think you'll be fine, just take time to fully learn the new gear. Not sure you spent enough tiime with the Xf100 to know it's capabilities. But, whatever. End of this thread, time totake your questions to the sony thread. __________________ Al Upper left hand corner of the map

July 15th, 2012, 04:08 AM	#69
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Looking at stepping up from XF100 to XF300 I was not really referring to the cropfactor but the fact that a f2.8 lens gives you more to work with when focussing then a f1.4 lens, something which also applies to a full frame camera. f1.4 is nice to have but for me only usable for creative close up shots, a f2.8 lens paired with a camera that can deal efficiently with high iso is the best you can get when working in very dark area's, f1.4 will only give you headaches when trying to nail the focus.

July 16th, 2012, 04:43 AM	#71
Nigel Barker Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Posts: 3,531	Re: Looking at stepping up from XF100 to XF300 Many of us shoot all day on 5Ds & encounter no issues with overheating. There is a theoretical increase in noise if the sensor is too hot. Shane Hurlburt describes in his blog shooting feature films with a shedload of 5D2s & swapping them over frequently to avoid any increased noise but it's not a consideration for most of use. I have only seen the red warning message come on once in over 3 years of 5D2 ownership & that was when it was left on a tripod in direct sunlight when the ambient temperature was 35C in the South of France.