XF100

Torsten Dettlaff · May 15th, 2012, 07:38 AM

Hi,

I'm very new to the XF100 but from what I have seen so far, the LCD shows a cooler image than the actual video file which will have the warmer more realistic colours (though I haven't tested on a calibrated display).

My question comes about after filming some snooker the other day. When I was filming, all the red balls look almost the same colour as the pink ball...despite their fairly deep red colour. I thought that this could be another LCD quirk but in post the results are the same. It looks as if the players are going for the pink on almost every clip :-)

The colour in the rest of the clip is very natural and accurate to how the room was. The lighting was 3 tungsten bulbs above the table so the play area was fairly well lit and the gain kept between 0-12dB. It's a shame because there's no good way to correct this without impacting too much else.

What could be causing this?

Thanks,

Torsten.

Alan McCormick · May 17th, 2012, 05:29 AM

Torsten, definitely sounds like a setup problem in your cam - without knowing what custom preset you used it is difficult to comment. Why not hook up your camera to your TV and have a play around using some various coloured objects that are well lit up?

At present my XF300 shows a slightly more saturated red on on of the presets, yesterday I hooked mine up to the TV and did some minor tweaks, hopefully that will give me less colour correction to do in post.

I will probably have to tweak it more but it is a great learning experience anyway.

Vincent Oliver · May 17th, 2012, 06:57 AM

It sounds like the Red saturation has been turned down, hence pink balls. (Please refrain from making any puns, however tempting it may seem)

Larry Becker · May 17th, 2012, 10:32 AM

Hi Torsten,

Could also be a white balance issue. Are you using Auto White Balance? On my XF300 I only use Auto anything in a run and gun/no ability to plan kind of scenario, and I am seldom really happy with it. I generally don't even bother shooting unless I can do a custom white balance or at MINIMUM, make sure I'm using one of the presets for white balance. For me, getting skin tones right is the most critical thing.

You mentioned tungesten lights - did you set the white balance on the tungsten setting? That would get you close, I think, but there are some variations in lighting sources, AND you may have had mixed lighting (window light, florescents, etc).

Also, gain can really effect color - an underexposed shot will shift colors, some more than others at times. You are apparently on auto gain (as you mentioned the 0-12db range). Auto gain is, again, not what you'd use if you're having difficulties with color. Set the gain manually. On the XF300 there is an exposure bar in manual mode (I assume also on the XF100- I often have to bump it a notch or two above what the camera would have set it at. You have to decide, not the camera.

CP files can play a huge role in colors and saturation. You may have just shifted the red saturation too low, as others have suggested (and is most likely), but you may be using a CP file that does that to you.Try different files - no one is appropriate for all settings, and siimply not using one won't be appropriate always either. This is a huge feature of the camera, and is widely misunderstood. I'm just getting the basics of it down and it is great! But also challenging... These files can change EVERYTHING about a shot, and not using them can really cripple the camera and make working in post a tedious job. Try to get it as close to the way you want in-camera. Try different CP files on the same scene and notice what they do. I think there are several of these floating around on the web, and there was talk about collecting them in a sticky here.

PLAY with the camera, get used to what it does and how it reacts to different things. Spend some time testing and evaluating settings. I spent an afternoon doing that and learned so much about it - suddenly it wasn't just magic -- it was making sense to my SLR Photography-based mind.

Finally, and this is hard for me, get off automatic ANYTHING. Thanks again to Doug Jensen's excellent video on the XF300/305 for the kick in the behind about this...

Let us know how it goes!

Larry
Sorry for the long answer... got me thinking about it...
(Vincent - notice I refrained from any puns - it was difficult!)

Mark Rigler · June 14th, 2012, 11:08 AM

I too have a problem with reds on my XF100, I tried the different picture profiles, manual white balance etc, but I can't get them close to the reds on my 5D mk2.

All other colours are fine.

Mark Andersson · June 16th, 2012, 12:12 AM

This is recommended from Alan Roberts from BBC from his quick tests:

In Color Matrix settings dial R-G to -8.

Also to help reduce noise set sharpness to -5 and Coring to +8. Also set Noise Reduction to 2.

I have found these settings to work very well.

Al Bergstein · June 24th, 2012, 12:22 AM

Agree with Mark.

Torsten Dettlaff · June 30th, 2012, 11:34 AM

Thanks for all your help and suggestions.

Since starting this thread, I have hooked up the XF100 via HDMI to a large'ish TV. I have found it a great way to really get a feel for what does what. E.g. the suggested sharpening reduction to reduce noise is incredibly obvious on a TV but not really at all on the smaller display on camera.

Anyway, I am currently putting this down to a bad setup in that particular room (both the room, lighting and the camera settings at the time). This is mainly because I have not seen this again on any reds....just the snooker balls....typical really because it's really important to know what colour they are.

Also, my monitor calibration could be off. My monitors are getting old now. :-(

If anyone wants to look at one of the files I'm referring to, I have uploaded one of the clips (only a few seconds long) to...

http://tdcat.com/externalmedia/xf100/pinkballs.zip

Torsten.

May 15th, 2012, 07:38 AM	#1
Torsten Dettlaff New Boot Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 9	XF100 - Red Snooker Balls Hi, I'm very new to the XF100 but from what I have seen so far, the LCD shows a cooler image than the actual video file which will have the warmer more realistic colours (though I haven't tested on a calibrated display). My question comes about after filming some snooker the other day. When I was filming, all the red balls look almost the same colour as the pink ball...despite their fairly deep red colour. I thought that this could be another LCD quirk but in post the results are the same. It looks as if the players are going for the pink on almost every clip :-) The colour in the rest of the clip is very natural and accurate to how the room was. The lighting was 3 tungsten bulbs above the table so the play area was fairly well lit and the gain kept between 0-12dB. It's a shame because there's no good way to correct this without impacting too much else. What could be causing this? Thanks, Torsten.

May 17th, 2012, 05:29 AM	#2
Alan McCormick Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chatham, UK Posts: 282	Re: XF100 - Red Snooker Balls Torsten, definitely sounds like a setup problem in your cam - without knowing what custom preset you used it is difficult to comment. Why not hook up your camera to your TV and have a play around using some various coloured objects that are well lit up? At present my XF300 shows a slightly more saturated red on on of the presets, yesterday I hooked mine up to the TV and did some minor tweaks, hopefully that will give me less colour correction to do in post. I will probably have to tweak it more but it is a great learning experience anyway. __________________ Alan McC

May 17th, 2012, 06:57 AM	#3
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	Re: XF100 - Red Snooker Balls It sounds like the Red saturation has been turned down, hence pink balls. (Please refrain from making any puns, however tempting it may seem) __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

May 17th, 2012, 10:32 AM	#4
Larry Becker Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 78	Re: XF100 - Red Snooker Balls Hi Torsten, Could also be a white balance issue. Are you using Auto White Balance? On my XF300 I only use Auto anything in a run and gun/no ability to plan kind of scenario, and I am seldom really happy with it. I generally don't even bother shooting unless I can do a custom white balance or at MINIMUM, make sure I'm using one of the presets for white balance. For me, getting skin tones right is the most critical thing. You mentioned tungesten lights - did you set the white balance on the tungsten setting? That would get you close, I think, but there are some variations in lighting sources, AND you may have had mixed lighting (window light, florescents, etc). Also, gain can really effect color - an underexposed shot will shift colors, some more than others at times. You are apparently on auto gain (as you mentioned the 0-12db range). Auto gain is, again, not what you'd use if you're having difficulties with color. Set the gain manually. On the XF300 there is an exposure bar in manual mode (I assume also on the XF100- I often have to bump it a notch or two above what the camera would have set it at. You have to decide, not the camera. CP files can play a huge role in colors and saturation. You may have just shifted the red saturation too low, as others have suggested (and is most likely), but you may be using a CP file that does that to you.Try different files - no one is appropriate for all settings, and siimply not using one won't be appropriate always either. This is a huge feature of the camera, and is widely misunderstood. I'm just getting the basics of it down and it is great! But also challenging... These files can change EVERYTHING about a shot, and not using them can really cripple the camera and make working in post a tedious job. Try to get it as close to the way you want in-camera. Try different CP files on the same scene and notice what they do. I think there are several of these floating around on the web, and there was talk about collecting them in a sticky here. PLAY with the camera, get used to what it does and how it reacts to different things. Spend some time testing and evaluating settings. I spent an afternoon doing that and learned so much about it - suddenly it wasn't just magic -- it was making sense to my SLR Photography-based mind. Finally, and this is hard for me, get off automatic ANYTHING. Thanks again to Doug Jensen's excellent video on the XF300/305 for the kick in the behind about this... Let us know how it goes! Larry Sorry for the long answer... got me thinking about it... (Vincent - notice I refrained from any puns - it was difficult!) Last edited by Larry Becker; May 17th, 2012 at 10:33 AM. Reason: minor change in wording

June 14th, 2012, 11:08 AM	#5
Mark Rigler Tourist Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Poole England Posts: 1	Re: XF100 - Red Snooker Balls I too have a problem with reds on my XF100, I tried the different picture profiles, manual white balance etc, but I can't get them close to the reds on my 5D mk2. All other colours are fine.

June 16th, 2012, 12:12 AM	#6
Mark Andersson Regular Crew Join Date: May 2010 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 57	Re: XF100 - Red Snooker Balls This is recommended from Alan Roberts from BBC from his quick tests: In Color Matrix settings dial R-G to -8. Also to help reduce noise set sharpness to -5 and Coring to +8. Also set Noise Reduction to 2. I have found these settings to work very well.

June 24th, 2012, 12:22 AM	#7
Al Bergstein Major Player Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Port Townsend, WA Posts: 456	Re: XF100 - Red Snooker Balls Agree with Mark. __________________ Al Upper left hand corner of the map

June 30th, 2012, 11:34 AM	#8
Torsten Dettlaff New Boot Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 9	Re: XF100 - Red Snooker Balls Thanks for all your help and suggestions. Since starting this thread, I have hooked up the XF100 via HDMI to a large'ish TV. I have found it a great way to really get a feel for what does what. E.g. the suggested sharpening reduction to reduce noise is incredibly obvious on a TV but not really at all on the smaller display on camera. Anyway, I am currently putting this down to a bad setup in that particular room (both the room, lighting and the camera settings at the time). This is mainly because I have not seen this again on any reds....just the snooker balls....typical really because it's really important to know what colour they are. Also, my monitor calibration could be off. My monitors are getting old now. :-( If anyone wants to look at one of the files I'm referring to, I have uploaded one of the clips (only a few seconds long) to... http://tdcat.com/externalmedia/xf100/pinkballs.zip Torsten.