Progressive or Interlaced?? at DVinfo.net

Frank Spangler · February 19th, 2011, 08:40 PM

I am from NTSC land and as most of my productions are destined for broadcast, I have always shot Interlaced in the past, and simply de-interlaced if I am encoding for the web. I have been very happy with the results with my XHA1.

Now that I have the XF300, and having read here how some are adamant Progressive shooters, and now working with a PAL camera, thinking that this might also make a difference, I decided to do some testing in Progressive.

To my eyes, there is still WAY too much judder, jitter, or stuttering, on the motion shots. It is the same results that I have been getting with my 7D. I have tried to use the 7D for stock, and if there is no motion in the shot, it looks fantastic! If there is the slightest motion, the clip becomes virtually unusable for stock, Because of the jitter, IMHO. I am sure that once it all gets processed and delivered to the Web, it must look great or no one would ever use the P while shooting... But what your you need to deliver to both the web and Broadcast? Is there an advantage to shooting in P and then trans-coding that to I for a broadcast destination, rather then just shoot in Interlaced?

For those of you who shoot exclusively in Progressive, am I missing something? Do you just live with the stuttering?

Thanks

Lou Bruno · February 21st, 2011, 09:14 AM

I will have to agree with Frank on this issue. I just purchased the XF-300 and have gone deeply into the menu settings and formats. To be honest, I do not like the 24P and 30P settings on any camera and to my eye, I not only see jitter but am observing a Shimmering issue in fine details with the XF-300.

Don't get me wrong, this camera is producing crisp images....maybe too crisp?

Later, I am going to adjust coring, sharpness and horizontal sharpness settings in an attempt to limit shimmering in scenes such as chain link fences, clothing patterns, telephone wires and tree branches.

NOTE: I also get a shimmer even in 60i. Hopefully this is a menu setting adjustment.

Tim Polster · February 21st, 2011, 09:29 AM

What both you guys are talking about means you are inside of a learning curve with these great new HD cameras!

It is not only progressive shooting you are speaking about but also slower framerate shooting. If you shoot 60p it will act just like interlaced.

The first thing to realize is that 60i is a style of shooting just like 24p is a style of shooting. Basically, if you are shooting 24p you do not move the camera very much. Or at least in specific ways to reduce judder. Panning is about the worst motion for 24p. If you take notice of Hollywood level movies most of the limited camera movement is the entire camera moving as a unit, not turning on an axis.

I say its a learning curve because 24p shooting is obviously a valid method as so many things you see on TV and at the theater use it. But you do have to learn how to use it and make it look just as smooth as interlaced shooting.

One thing I do is shoot in 60p then if it fits I put the footage on a 24p timeline. That way if there is too much motion I can be covered in 60p and maybe have an interview section in 24p etc... Just another arrow in the quiver.

Andy Solaini · February 21st, 2011, 10:35 AM

This thread has some similar info. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xf...5p-blurry.html

I rarely shoot 25p because I shoot far moving things like aviation a lot of 50i works great with the pans.

Andy S

Lou Bruno · February 21st, 2011, 10:55 AM

You are correct. On my SLR, I use a tripod and steady shots BUT do not get the shimmer in fine detail as I do with this camera. I still think it is a menu setting in my case using the XF-possibly detail settings?.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Polster

What both you guys are talking about means you are inside of a learning curve with these great new HD cameras!

It is not only progressive shooting you are speaking about but also slower framerate shooting. If you shoot 60p it will act just like interlaced.

The first thing to realize is that 60i is a style of shooting just like 24p is a style of shooting. Basically, if you are shooting 24p you do not move the camera very much. Or at least in specific ways to reduce judder. Panning is about the worst motion for 24p. If you take notice of Hollywood level movies most of the limited camera movement is the entire camera moving as a unit, not turning on an axis.

I say its a learning curve because 24p shooting is obviously a valid method as so many things you see on TV and at the theater use it. But you do have to learn how to use it and make it look just as smooth as interlaced shooting.

One thing I do is shoot in 60p then if it fits I put the footage on a 24p timeline. That way if there is too much motion I can be covered in 60p and maybe have an interview section in 24p etc... Just another arrow in the quiver.

Tim Polster · February 21st, 2011, 01:36 PM

Do you get shimmering on Blu-ray, DVD or while you are editing?

Lou Bruno · February 21st, 2011, 03:45 PM

Not while editing or in the scene bin playback BUT, I will get the shimmering on DVD and Blu-ray as well as a file to my USB drive. Using PlayStation3 as the playback. This shimmering is in progressive as per the topic and in 60i....all format sizes as well. I adjust the Coring and Sharpness setting on the camera to no avail. SO, it may be a CODEC problem.

Frank Spangler · February 21st, 2011, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Polster

What both you guys are talking about means you are inside of a learning curve with these great new HD cameras!

It is not only progressive shooting you are speaking about but also slower framerate shooting. If you shoot 60p it will act just like interlaced.

The first thing to realize is that 60i is a style of shooting just like 24p is a style of shooting. Basically, if you are shooting 24p you do not move the camera very much. Or at least in specific ways to reduce judder. Panning is about the worst motion for 24p. If you take notice of Hollywood level movies most of the limited camera movement is the entire camera moving as a unit, not turning on an axis.

I say its a learning curve because 24p shooting is obviously a valid method as so many things you see on TV and at the theater use it. But you do have to learn how to use it and make it look just as smooth as interlaced shooting.

One thing I do is shoot in 60p then if it fits I put the footage on a 24p timeline. That way if there is too much motion I can be covered in 60p and maybe have an interview section in 24p etc... Just another arrow in the quiver.

I hear you on the pans. I very rarely pan in my work, so this would not be a problem. What I am more concerned about is the stuttering that I am seeing when there is any motion in what I am shooting in 25P If someone moves their arms it is almost like a strobe effect. I have not had the time to test this through the edit process, to see if that clears it up, but it is quite disconcerting to see this right on the LCD screen of the camera, and then also on my HD monitor direct from the camera.

I am already on location, so no more time to do any more tests... I will be shooting this first one in 50i until I can get this sorted out!

Tim Polster · February 21st, 2011, 09:27 PM

Lou, I would have to see but Blu-ray should not be shimmering. I can see DVd because of a downconvert but not on Blu-ray.

I am sorry but I do not own this camera though.

Frank, maybe check your shutter speed. Some cameras will lower the shutter to the framerate unless you tell it otherwise.

I do not find a ton of use for 24p either but have tested it and at first it seems like a mess. But ater 30 seconds of watching somethign you just accept the motion qualities and focus on the content.

Bill Engeler · February 22nd, 2011, 12:32 AM

Frank, I think if you look at your footage in a monitor, you will be relieved. The image in the LCD shows very exaggerated stutter and posterization at 24 or 25p.

Matt Ford · February 22nd, 2011, 01:44 AM

If you have Peaking turned on it can make motion on the LCD awful unless your in playback!

Lou Bruno · February 22nd, 2011, 07:53 AM

I figured out the situation with the shimmering. I was always aware that both progressive and interlace, as stated above, is a result of downconversions. However.... my observations were in both original and downconversions.

I am also observing this on the original material, no matter the bit rate or format size.

I was able to address the issue after adjusting two "things" :

.I adjusted the SHARPNESS to a -7

.I adjusted CORING to 20%-this eliminates noise in small details such as tree branches, electrical wires etc.

.Lastly, I lowered the sharpness of my HDTV-this was a big help.

In closing, this camera is very, very, sharp and crisp. It appears that the settings I discovered above MAY only effect my personal HDTV. More experimenting needed. So, it was the menu settings in BOTH my camera and my HDTV resulting in shimmering of fine details in the progressive and even the interlace setting on the original material. This resulted in better pans albeit still too jerky for my taste. Again, this is my personal preference.

NOTE: Downconverts still have detail problkems but this is related to compression and not the menu settings.

February 19th, 2011, 08:40 PM	#1
Frank Spangler New Boot Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Berrien Springs, MI (Now spending most of my days in Vietnam) Posts: 24	Progressive or Interlaced?? I am from NTSC land and as most of my productions are destined for broadcast, I have always shot Interlaced in the past, and simply de-interlaced if I am encoding for the web. I have been very happy with the results with my XHA1. Now that I have the XF300, and having read here how some are adamant Progressive shooters, and now working with a PAL camera, thinking that this might also make a difference, I decided to do some testing in Progressive. To my eyes, there is still WAY too much judder, jitter, or stuttering, on the motion shots. It is the same results that I have been getting with my 7D. I have tried to use the 7D for stock, and if there is no motion in the shot, it looks fantastic! If there is the slightest motion, the clip becomes virtually unusable for stock, Because of the jitter, IMHO. I am sure that once it all gets processed and delivered to the Web, it must look great or no one would ever use the P while shooting... But what your you need to deliver to both the web and Broadcast? Is there an advantage to shooting in P and then trans-coding that to I for a broadcast destination, rather then just shoot in Interlaced? For those of you who shoot exclusively in Progressive, am I missing something? Do you just live with the stuttering? Thanks __________________ Frank Spangler Video Production: www.panopro.com Stock Images: www.worldviewimages.com Stock Video: www.pond5.com

February 21st, 2011, 09:14 AM	#2
Lou Bruno Go Cycle Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Huntington, NY Posts: 815	Re: Progressive or Interlaced?? I will have to agree with Frank on this issue. I just purchased the XF-300 and have gone deeply into the menu settings and formats. To be honest, I do not like the 24P and 30P settings on any camera and to my eye, I not only see jitter but am observing a Shimmering issue in fine details with the XF-300. Don't get me wrong, this camera is producing crisp images....maybe too crisp? Later, I am going to adjust coring, sharpness and horizontal sharpness settings in an attempt to limit shimmering in scenes such as chain link fences, clothing patterns, telephone wires and tree branches. NOTE: I also get a shimmer even in 60i. Hopefully this is a menu setting adjustment. __________________ Lou Bruno

February 21st, 2011, 09:29 AM	#3
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Re: Progressive or Interlaced?? What both you guys are talking about means you are inside of a learning curve with these great new HD cameras! It is not only progressive shooting you are speaking about but also slower framerate shooting. If you shoot 60p it will act just like interlaced. The first thing to realize is that 60i is a style of shooting just like 24p is a style of shooting. Basically, if you are shooting 24p you do not move the camera very much. Or at least in specific ways to reduce judder. Panning is about the worst motion for 24p. If you take notice of Hollywood level movies most of the limited camera movement is the entire camera moving as a unit, not turning on an axis. I say its a learning curve because 24p shooting is obviously a valid method as so many things you see on TV and at the theater use it. But you do have to learn how to use it and make it look just as smooth as interlaced shooting. One thing I do is shoot in 60p then if it fits I put the footage on a 24p timeline. That way if there is too much motion I can be covered in 60p and maybe have an interview section in 24p etc... Just another arrow in the quiver.

February 21st, 2011, 10:35 AM	#4
Andy Solaini Major Player Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 223	Re: Progressive or Interlaced?? This thread has some similar info. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xf...5p-blurry.html I rarely shoot 25p because I shoot far moving things like aviation a lot of 50i works great with the pans. Andy S

February 21st, 2011, 01:36 PM	#6
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Re: Progressive or Interlaced?? Do you get shimmering on Blu-ray, DVD or while you are editing?

February 21st, 2011, 03:45 PM	#7
Lou Bruno Go Cycle Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Huntington, NY Posts: 815	Re: Progressive or Interlaced?? Not while editing or in the scene bin playback BUT, I will get the shimmering on DVD and Blu-ray as well as a file to my USB drive. Using PlayStation3 as the playback. This shimmering is in progressive as per the topic and in 60i....all format sizes as well. I adjust the Coring and Sharpness setting on the camera to no avail. SO, it may be a CODEC problem. __________________ Lou Bruno

February 21st, 2011, 09:27 PM	#9
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Re: Progressive or Interlaced?? Lou, I would have to see but Blu-ray should not be shimmering. I can see DVd because of a downconvert but not on Blu-ray. I am sorry but I do not own this camera though. Frank, maybe check your shutter speed. Some cameras will lower the shutter to the framerate unless you tell it otherwise. I do not find a ton of use for 24p either but have tested it and at first it seems like a mess. But ater 30 seconds of watching somethign you just accept the motion qualities and focus on the content.

February 22nd, 2011, 12:32 AM	#10
Bill Engeler Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Brussels, Belgium Posts: 162	Re: Progressive or Interlaced?? Frank, I think if you look at your footage in a monitor, you will be relieved. The image in the LCD shows very exaggerated stutter and posterization at 24 or 25p.

February 22nd, 2011, 01:44 AM	#11
Matt Ford Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: London Posts: 53	Re: Progressive or Interlaced?? If you have Peaking turned on it can make motion on the LCD awful unless your in playback!

February 22nd, 2011, 07:53 AM	#12
Lou Bruno Go Cycle Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Huntington, NY Posts: 815	Re: Progressive or Interlaced?? I figured out the situation with the shimmering. I was always aware that both progressive and interlace, as stated above, is a result of downconversions. However.... my observations were in both original and downconversions. I am also observing this on the original material, no matter the bit rate or format size. I was able to address the issue after adjusting two "things" : .I adjusted the SHARPNESS to a -7 .I adjusted CORING to 20%-this eliminates noise in small details such as tree branches, electrical wires etc. .Lastly, I lowered the sharpness of my HDTV-this was a big help. In closing, this camera is very, very, sharp and crisp. It appears that the settings I discovered above MAY only effect my personal HDTV. More experimenting needed. So, it was the menu settings in BOTH my camera and my HDTV resulting in shimmering of fine details in the progressive and even the interlace setting on the original material. This resulted in better pans albeit still too jerky for my taste. Again, this is my personal preference. NOTE: Downconverts still have detail problkems but this is related to compression and not the menu settings. __________________ Lou Bruno