Canon's new 50Mbps MPEG-2 Full HD (4:2:2) codec

Peter Moretti · February 2nd, 2010, 11:23 PM

I'm assuming this will be Long GOP, not I-frame only?

Robert M Wright · February 2nd, 2010, 11:35 PM

Yeah, 50Mbps MPEG-2 intraframe only compression would be a bit rough.

Jonathan Shaw · February 2nd, 2010, 11:47 PM

just when I thought that previous Canon announcement was pretty average, it looks like they have been listening.
Looking forward to see some images both of the cam and of what it can produce

Monday Isa · February 3rd, 2010, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Kimery

Colors would contain less noise and the image could be processed more in post before 'falling apart.' The same thing that provides a smoother edge for chroma keying would also supply a smoothing looking fall off of, let's say, a color light on a stage or a presenter standing in front of a big power point presentation.

-Andrew

Thanks for the explanation Andrew!

Steve Phillipps · February 3rd, 2010, 06:57 AM

Don't suppose anyone has any info on when these cams might hit the shelf?
Steve

Alister Chapman · February 3rd, 2010, 06:57 AM

The difference between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 is purely down to chroma resolution. It won't change the amount of chroma noise or the intensity of the colours. In interlace the difference is more pronounced and can be seen on fine strongly coloured edges as a slightly jagged edge. In progressive the difference is much less significant and often very hard to spot. Certainly 4:2:2 is preferable, but the camera will need good sensors to fully take advantage of it. Let's hope Canon don't disappoint!

Thomas Smet · February 3rd, 2010, 07:59 AM

50 mbits/s with mpeg2 is a darn good bitrate and even convergent design will tell you it is a perfect balance for high quality acquisition. The only time they suggest going higher is if you really need to know every frame is rock solid as perfect as the camera itself will allow. 35 mbits is already known as a pretty solid format and moving up to 50 mbits makes it even more rock solid.

Even if computers are capable of dealing with native AVCHD editing they will always be a step ahead with mpeg2 editing. If a system a few years from now can edit 3 streams of AVCHD then it would be able to handle 6 streams of mpeg2. The rendering will also be at least twice as fast which is a pretty big deal for a lot of professionals that need a quick turn around time. A lot of NLE's even have mpeg2 smart rendering so only the stuff you change gets rendered. I would rather render a project in 2 hours compared to 10 hours if I have a client waiting.

As for broadcast specs I wouldn't be as concerned about it. Stations can tell if you shot with a 4:2:0 camera but it is much harder to tell if you shot with a 1/2" camera. If you light carefully I doubt many people would notice. Sometimes there can be a slight difference in detail as most 1/2" or 2/3" cameras use full raster CCD's. Ironically HDCAM dumbs this down to a 1440x1080 3:1:1 color tape. So other then low light performance I expect the new Canon format to at least beat the pants off the HDCAM tape format.

Maybe I should finally sell my old XL1 to pay for the tax on this new camera. LOL

Alister Chapman · February 3rd, 2010, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

Maybe I should finally sell my old XL1 to pay for the tax on this new camera. LOL

Sounds like a sound business decision to me. ;0)

Chris Hurd · February 3rd, 2010, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

Don't suppose anyone has any info on when these cams might hit the shelf?

That info will be included in the official Canon press release announcing the camera, whenever it is issued. Until then, nobody knows for sure (and those who do are restricted by NDA). So far, Canon has said only "sometime in 2010." Of course, DV Info Net always reports official news as it happens, so stay tuned to this site.

Kyle Root · February 3rd, 2010, 03:37 PM

I hope they take a page from their consumer AVCHD line and include say 128GB or 256GB (to one-up the Sony NX cams.) on board flash memory.

What else would be nifty is a tape based acquisition system too... And also the ability to use removable media like SD cards.

3 types of storage....pie in the sky?

Steve Phillipps · February 3rd, 2010, 04:06 PM

Sounds good to me Kyle. Any reason why that would be impractical? There may well be one, but I don't know it.
Steve

Chris Hurd · February 3rd, 2010, 04:06 PM

Take a look at the photos in my article... there's no tape transport mechanism on this model.

Robert M Wright · February 3rd, 2010, 05:01 PM

You know, I've sort of wondered at times, why Sony didn't take essentially a DVCAM approach (faster tape transport speed) and offer what amounts to recording XDCAM EX on MiniDV tape, years ago, shortly after HDV was first introduced. They could have done that right from the get-go with the Z1.

Robert Sanders · February 3rd, 2010, 05:44 PM

10-bit color would've been nice.

Kyle Root · February 3rd, 2010, 06:23 PM

Chris, I did see the pictures in your article when you posted it originally. My thought was, it was just a rough mock up with the possibility of design changes still a reality.

If Canon was able to cover all the bases with tape, SD/CF, and built in storage, they would please a lot of people. Especially those of us who have some concerns about archiving, which currently is a lot easier with tape.

February 2nd, 2010, 11:23 PM	#61
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	I'm assuming this will be Long GOP, not I-frame only? __________________ Avid Media Composer 3.1.3. Boris Red and Continuum Complete. Vegas 8.0c. TMPGEnc Xpress Pro 4.0

February 2nd, 2010, 11:47 PM	#63
Jonathan Shaw Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 552	just when I thought that previous Canon announcement was pretty average, it looks like they have been listening. Looking forward to see some images both of the cam and of what it can produce __________________ www.ginclearfilm.com www.facebook.com/ginclearfilm

February 3rd, 2010, 06:57 AM	#66
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	The difference between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 is purely down to chroma resolution. It won't change the amount of chroma noise or the intensity of the colours. In interlace the difference is more pronounced and can be seen on fine strongly coloured edges as a slightly jagged edge. In progressive the difference is much less significant and often very hard to spot. Certainly 4:2:2 is preferable, but the camera will need good sensors to fully take advantage of it. Let's hope Canon don't disappoint! __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

February 3rd, 2010, 03:37 PM	#70
Kyle Root Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Decatur, AL Posts: 883	I hope they take a page from their consumer AVCHD line and include say 128GB or 256GB (to one-up the Sony NX cams.) on board flash memory. What else would be nifty is a tape based acquisition system too... And also the ability to use removable media like SD cards. 3 types of storage....pie in the sky? __________________ Kyle KR Productions; www.kyleroot.com

February 3rd, 2010, 04:06 PM	#72
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Take a look at the photos in my article... there's no tape transport mechanism on this model. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 2nd, 2010, 11:35 PM	#62
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	Yeah, 50Mbps MPEG-2 intraframe only compression would be a bit rough.

February 3rd, 2010, 06:57 AM	#65
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Don't suppose anyone has any info on when these cams might hit the shelf? Steve

February 3rd, 2010, 07:59 AM	#67
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	50 mbits/s with mpeg2 is a darn good bitrate and even convergent design will tell you it is a perfect balance for high quality acquisition. The only time they suggest going higher is if you really need to know every frame is rock solid as perfect as the camera itself will allow. 35 mbits is already known as a pretty solid format and moving up to 50 mbits makes it even more rock solid. Even if computers are capable of dealing with native AVCHD editing they will always be a step ahead with mpeg2 editing. If a system a few years from now can edit 3 streams of AVCHD then it would be able to handle 6 streams of mpeg2. The rendering will also be at least twice as fast which is a pretty big deal for a lot of professionals that need a quick turn around time. A lot of NLE's even have mpeg2 smart rendering so only the stuff you change gets rendered. I would rather render a project in 2 hours compared to 10 hours if I have a client waiting. As for broadcast specs I wouldn't be as concerned about it. Stations can tell if you shot with a 4:2:0 camera but it is much harder to tell if you shot with a 1/2" camera. If you light carefully I doubt many people would notice. Sometimes there can be a slight difference in detail as most 1/2" or 2/3" cameras use full raster CCD's. Ironically HDCAM dumbs this down to a 1440x1080 3:1:1 color tape. So other then low light performance I expect the new Canon format to at least beat the pants off the HDCAM tape format. Maybe I should finally sell my old XL1 to pay for the tax on this new camera. LOL

February 3rd, 2010, 05:01 PM	#73
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	You know, I've sort of wondered at times, why Sony didn't take essentially a DVCAM approach (faster tape transport speed) and offer what amounts to recording XDCAM EX on MiniDV tape, years ago, shortly after HDV was first introduced. They could have done that right from the get-go with the Z1.

February 3rd, 2010, 05:44 PM	#74
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	10-bit color would've been nice. __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

February 3rd, 2010, 06:23 PM	#75
Kyle Root Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Decatur, AL Posts: 883	Chris, I did see the pictures in your article when you posted it originally. My thought was, it was just a rough mock up with the possibility of design changes still a reality. If Canon was able to cover all the bases with tape, SD/CF, and built in storage, they would please a lot of people. Especially those of us who have some concerns about archiving, which currently is a lot easier with tape. __________________ Kyle KR Productions; www.kyleroot.com